A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

I disagree. I knew making someone feel uncomfortable was a possibility so I did what I could to limit the possibility of that happening. You’re also assuming all female people are against trans inclusion which obviously isn’t the case.

There is a difference between someone quitely using a space and someone going out of their way to make others uncomfortable. Treating this as a zero sum game makes life harder for everyone

Ahhh the emperor has no clothes…

And just like that gender critical ideology been shown to be just a very particular point of view built on spurious assumptions about what women want or believe who are not only exploiting women's suffering but making it immeasurably worse.

"understand consent"

And you do?:

You.don't.speak.for.all.women.

She speaks for the majority of women though. Hope that helps both of you.

There's this thing called 'wishful thinking'…

God why is MN so absolutely obsessed with trans people? The amount of posts about the issue is so UTTERLY disproportionate to the size of the issue!

You realise it's the gait, it's the height, the voice, the feet and hand size, the limb length, the lack of hips, the adams apple, the male jaw bone... Studies have shown women and even children can tell a male from a female in 96% of cases? What, do you really think some clothes and some lipstick hide the male craniofacial features? Do you genuinely believe that?

Males make up 50% of the population. And yes we can spot a male no matter what he wears. Do you genuinely think 'trans people' are a third sex or something? They are still male or female. Lipstick and dresses don't change that.

The female-to-men may be a bit harder but even so they look like miniature versions of men with peach fuzz on their faces and hips. Telling transwomen? Easy. Far too many 'tells'. Our issue is not with transmen but with transwomen as they are male and a threat to us. The female sex are not a threat to us females in the same way as males. Hence the emphasis on males (transwomen) in our spaces.

One of the males recently used the women’s toilets as dictated by law. He was asked to leave.

If he is a male, and by that I presume you mean a biological male identifying as a transwoman, then his biological sex dictates he uses the male toilets. Not the female's.

Do you believe there is no natural variation in how men and women look? Or are you just applying your narrow idea of what a woman has to look like?

Ah, so you're a transwoman. This explains your lack of understanding of how it is innate in females to spot a male, for our survival. Males genuinely do not have the ability that women do to accurately sex a male, it's not a survival requirement in your sex. You've probably not had any bad comments from women - who choose fight-or-flight and won't challenge a male because we know it could end badly with us being knocked out and/or killed. So you think silence is complicity and acceptance. Unfortunately this also means you think you 'pass'. You would be making a very serious mistake there. Believe me, they know. They just choose to live another day. That's all.

Lol you really think covers are not airbrushed, don't you? This is male naivette. Even female gorgeous supermodels have their images airbrushed on covers.

Why not just be a feminine man? There is no right way or wrong way to be a man. Your soul and character is what is important, the body is just a vessel.

Also you say " ‘being a man’ whatever that means"

So what if we say you are trying to be a woman 'whatever that means'? How can you possibly know what it's like to be a woman, if you don't know what being a man means?

Oh yes we can always tell. You do like that one. It’s a shame my day-to-day lived reality disproves it but whatever.

Yep. Male socialisation and aggression always gives them away (in addition to the skeletal structure and gait).

This goes back to what I said earlier. Women don't say anything, out of survival. You therefore take this for you 'passing'. You show Male Thought Pattern and male socialisation. The fact is your presence does cause alarm and distress, but you genuinely don't care. As long as 'no one says anything'. You are trespassing in female spaces because your need to be among women for validation is more important than the unspoken distress of women and girls. You are male through and through.

I’m a perceptive person

No, you're not. You really are not. You males don't have the first clue about female responses. You are completely and totally and utterly oblivious.

No, they genuinely don't. Male skeletal structure is completely different.

Males are 50% of the population. Not 0.5%. And males entering female spaces is what makes female unsafe. Don't DARVO and gaslight females for reacting to males in our spaces. What hypocrisy!

Yes, the hypocrisy, idiocy, and hateful misogyny is breathtaking...

You’re assuming malicious intent where none exists.

It's not about 'intent'. It's about the consequences and reaction of females. Regardless of your 'intent'. By talking about your intent, you are, as all males do, making it all about yourself. And how you feel regarding your intent. Not how females feel. It's all about you and what your intent is. Your 'intent' is completely irrelevant. And entering female spaces, even by deception, when you know you have no right to be there is malicious.

Yet again, Male Pattern Thought Process and Male Entitlement and Male Socialisation. You think because females (quite rightly and quite naturally) don't challenge you, you pass.

The male space, since you are quite obviously male, is the most logical space for you to use. But you don't care about anyone but yourself. Classic Male Entitlement.

You are asking me to reject positive, observable reality in favour of your unproven, theoretical 'unspoken distress.' In my daily interactions, I receive warmth, not cold silence or nervous avoidance.

If my presence truly caused the level of distress you claim, this would be a constant, visible source of friction. You are asking me to believe that hundreds of women across years are engaging in an elaborate, silent conspiracy of fear, rather than accepting the simpler conclusion: they are treating me as a woman because they perceive me as a woman.

There has been case law over the years affirming trans people’s right to use single sex spaces that match their acquired gender. There is still the open question of whether work spaces are different to spaces that fall under the EA. The Supreme Court was clear their ruling only applies to the EA and workplace spaces come under different legislation where the case law supports trans inclusion in some circumstances.

That is not true is it. There has never been any law that has allowed male people to use single sex spaces that doesn't match their sex.

Some males behave abhorrently. That is why we have female only single sex spaces. To keep all males out. Regardless of how they identify. You are no different to any other male. And that you've been breaking the law for years does not justify it. Females leaving quickly and not challenging you does not justify it. You are breaking the law and you are violating that sacred female space, all because you with your male entitlement, put your wants first. While knowing all along you are where you should not be.

Women speaking on behalf of women is matriarchy. Not patriarchy. You're being ridiculous.

Limiting the possibility would mean not using that space in the first place.

That space, is where women flee men. Where we cry, where we seek help. Where we miscarry. Where we change openly at the sinks to go somewhere. Where we rinse out blood-stained underwear. It is so, so, so, so much more than a mere 'space'. It's a haven for the female sex. And you being there while women and girls are attending to feminine hygiene, miscarrying, crying, escaping a male following them etc is a violation of that sacred space. Only a male would not understand what the female sex does in those spaces. To you, you whip your dick out, pee, wash hands (hopefully) and leave. The male toilets are not an important space for males. The female toilets are a haven for females in the way the 'mens' isn't. That is what you with your lack of understanding of the female sex doesn't understand.

Poll after poll after poll shows women want female single sex spaces to remain female only. The overwhelming majority. Not many women are going to pipe up and say they are happy with men in the ladies. This is what you men don't get.