A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

Arden has a wonderful podcast called "Trans Atlantic" where the pictures don't do her justice…

Professional polls are very reliable on this issue and the polls are the same in several countries. The fact you actually think women would be happy having a man in the ladies shows the batshit delusional level you are operating on.

Err, the context is frame size not pelvis shape…😂

Er, it is both! Also the skull.

And the pelvis determines gait. You clearly didn't know that.

That you don't understand the correlating authoritarianism between the two pretty much explains your ideological position.

No because I'm a woman. It has seriously never occured to me to question that.

How would you know if they are reliable without having any electoral evidence to back them up?

All you have is biased speculation.

The only authoritarianism is a smug Privileged Male thinking he has the right to dismiss the female lived experience.

Yet you think the majority of women support men going into the ladies with no polling and no electoral evidence. Hypocrisy.

I think sex is easily recognised at least 95% of the time - but not always. I don't know Arden Hart but the photos posted would definitely make me think twice - and that's before noticing gait, voice etc. I think it is also true that many tws have been told they pass when they don't- it's human behaviour to want to please.

Err you need a Forensic Anthropologist for that. The rest of us mere mortals are just guessing.

Where there's no broad ground swell of political will, there's disinterest.

IE: You have nothing.

If men would just bloody keep out of women's spaces and obey the law we wouldn't have to have such ridiculous debates that boil down to 'if a man doesn't look like a man, is he really a man?' It's meaningless. If a man looks like anything he's still a fecking man and it's not about whether people read him as something else. Just use the facilities that match your biological, not imagined, sex. It's not hard and it's not (or shouldn't) be a female problem.

no. They stand out like a sore thumb. The sad thing is they mistake women’s fear of conflict for acceptance and compliance. I know when I’ve been faced with an obvious bloke in the ladies, fear kicks in and I just want out. I just don’t understand why these males believe their right to access female spaces is more important than my right to safety, privacy and dignity, and organisations and the government agree with them.

'pleasers' = anyone who disagrees with me…

There was disinterest in women gaining the vote. It was only a teeny tiny minority of women that campaigned for it. ie you have no argument.

Look mate. Just accept it. Women are saying no. I know this upsets you but that’s life. Have you tried reframing your trauma? It doesn’t matter what words you say. The answer is no.

Err, maybe that had something to do with women having to face the consequences from their fathers, husbands & brothers if they did…

I mean, do you know anything about women's historical oppression ?

Talks about consequences. Doesn't understand the correlation between history, and women and girls remaining silent today. Typical male ignorance.

Ummm mate! Youre te one trying to oppress women by making them alllow males into female spaces. You talking about female oppression is not a good look. Youre one of the oppressors.

I'm still stuck on the "biological sex " meaningless but we must pretend to be women when we are male. It's so weirdly "opposite action" . I don't even understand the reasoning behind it. Could someone please explain?

Oh dear. Off you toddle.

And yet they protested in the millions when Trump got elected not to mention the reproductive protests of the 1960's & 70's.

I mean the hide to speak for women's rights when you don't know the first thing about them..

Edinburgh seems to be a hotbed for it - I see at least a dozen every time I visit, many more than I see in my home town in Europe.

Women are very good at spotting adult males. If we see one in a situation where we are vulnerable we: freeze, fawn or flee. We don't fight. Not even verbally. Because we know evolution has given us a plastic spork if this turns into a knife fight.

So, we smile and make small talk. We stay while slowly moving closer to the exit door. We pretend we only needed to wash our hands. We leave feeling shaken but grateful we got away 'unharmed'.

A gazelle MUST spot the prowling lion every time. One mistake and she's likely dead. The lion can fail to spot the gazelle, and be hungry for a few more hours. It's not the same level of evolutionary pressure.

An XY chromosome and testosterone-fuelled male puberty result in so many large clues: male height, broad shoulders/narrow hips, heavy musculature/beer belly, strong jawline/brow ridge, very large hands/feet, deep voice, male pattern baldness, facial hair/shadow, how he holds and moves his head, walking gait and so on. We know.