A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

It's about MALES, males in female only safe spaces, @FlayOtters . Not 'trans people'. You clearly don't get it.

There is no variation in the skeletal structure of males. Most people know this.

Again, for the what, 7th time? You think women not challenging you means you pass. You have male thought process.

Again, for the 8th time, women don't let on. They choose to avoid conflict. You'd know this automatically and by instinct if you were actually a female. The fact that, no matter how many times it's explained to you you still don't get it, shows your male thought process. You simply cannot understand. No matter how many times it's explained. You see what you want to see. You cannot read the female sex.

Cor blimey. I’m not necessarily a ‘you can always tell-er’, but when men who role play as women post on here you really can always tell can’t you?

Men like our current visitor truly see women’s stuff as Terra Nullius, not in use by anyone of consequence, and rightly available to brave colonialists like themselves

Exactly my position as well. If someone breaks the rules by going completely stealth, they are by definition doing no harm. They still shouldn't be doing it but, if they're that deep undercover, nobody knows and I don't care.

It's much more harmful to be a hulking great bloke and try forcing women to pretend he's one of them.

As to "You'd never know" - I'll always accept that I might not, but see above. If I don't know, I don't care. It's much harder to seem female-coded in real life, though. This chap used to be one of my friends. I never thought of him as anything but a man.

Men are more easily fooled. Bloody idiots!

Yes, their I-want I-want I-want, my-intent, me-me-me-I-me-I-I-I is obvious. It's all about them. All about their wants. And this one says a woman has to actually show outward distress before he will respect the female boundary? Whatever happen to just....obeying the law, even if you think you 'won't get caught'?

Whatever happened to doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do? No, it's I want, my intent, me-me-I-I-I. If I speed on a straight deserted stretch of the road, am I vindicated in that because there were no cop cars around? No. If I steal from a shop, nobody notices and I got away with it, is that ok? With these men, they think 'as long as I can get away with it', it's ok. This one admits he wants to see a woman distressed first. So a woman has to first be distressed, in the first place, before he will even consider it. He needs to see a woman in distress first! It's vile Male Entitlement. Classic male behaviour in thought and deed. It's selfish and cruel. Just obey the bloody law, even if you think you can 'get away with it'!

Often digital does not reflect reality. Getting confused between the two is a sign of being too online.

It took me a while to get to this place as it feels mean, but my view these days is that a person who wants to live their life pretending to be something they fundamentally are not is just straight up an unreliable witness in trans related matters

they will wang on about lived experience and how perceptive they are, but in general it will all be bollocks

they are not capable of thinking rationally around this subject

@TheGrayDeer, imagine you're in a gathering of people much like yourself. An adult male gorilla walks in. You are told this gorilla thinks it's a human, please be nice to him. The presence of the gorilla, unsurprisingly, causes some tension among the assembled company. Also, it's barging around somewhat and you all really, really want it to go away. Are you volunteering to get rid of it? You know it wants to feel like all the other humans and will be very cross if made to leave.
A gorilla can kill a man with one swipe. Perhaps you'll just buy it a pint and offer a seat.

No, I am not saying 'trans women' are gorillas! I'm offering an analogy that might help you understand why you experience women being 'welcoming' when you're in their spaces.

Or fear.

Yes.....☹️

Yes and the thing is, males have no "lived experience" of being a girl or a woman. They only have male lived experience. They have no lived experience of being a girl and having their period. Of having to undo a sanitary pad wrapper when males are in earshot. Of having to rinse blood-stained underwear. When males walk to the sink. They have no lived experience of fleeing to the ladies to escape a man stalking or harassing them. They have no lived experience of running to the ladies thinking they are miscarrying. They have zero actual lived experience of being a girl growing into a woman or being a woman. They are in a space they have no right to be in.

And they have no sense of conscience. If I were in a space I knew I shouldn't be, my guilty conscience would be playing on my mind. Surely they know deep down that they shouldn't be there. Even if no woman or girl appears to be in distress, shouldn't it prick their conscience that they are where they shouldn't be? It's almost sociopathic in their complete lack of sense of conscience, or right from wrong. They think if they can get away with it, it's ok. There is no pinprick of conscience there. The TIM on this thread even said that a woman needs to suffer (experience distress) first, before he will even consider stopping. That's not just a lack of conscience, that's sociopathy. It's like saying a person needs to be killed before the council will do anything about a bad crossing. Someone has to suffer first. Even then, we all know he'll justify it as 'well it's just one out of hundreds of times I've been here, so it's ok'. Then he'll brush it off at 2. At 3. At 5. At 80. These males have no intention of listening to their conscience and doing the right thing for no other reason than it's the right thing to do.

Moving in techy, nerdy circles as I did in my frivolous and erratic youth, I knew loads (yes, scientific term there) of trans people.

I say trans people because to this day, there was a fair number I didn't know, couldn't tell, and would not know now had I not been told (but still not clarified as to whether male to female or female to male) and some that were more obvious.

The non-obvious ones were the people who dressed exactly the same as every other 90s alternative/goth/weirdo/nerd - baggy clothes, jeans, lots of layers, lots of black, stupid coloured hair etc etc. (We all still dress like that now tbh) - they weren't trying to emulate some odd idea of a particular gender.

This was of course before being trans was in any way trendy.

You'll never know the people who truly pass, unless they tell you, and they are out there - they're not super common, admittedly... but they do exist and to pretend they don't because 'I've never noticed one' is a very silly statement.

Yep, clocked it with the first post…

I do understand your point here and I could definitely see a trans woman getting extremely angry and hurting someone. You only have to look at the behaviour of some trans activists to see the danger. I hate everything about modern trans activism. It’s so angry and does a disservice to the people who want to live quietly. This issue has become disproportionately toxic for a small number of people and I think most people in the UK want to live and let live.

In normal interactions not in single sex spaces I am consistently gendered female. There is a small chance people are just being nice/polite, but trans acceptable is going down so I find it hard to believe that every person I encounter is just being nice. If I’m easily identifiable as trans, wouldn’t I have some negative experiences?

I didn’t exactly say someone needs to suffer before I reconsider. It was a poor choice of words on my part and it’s obviously not someone I hope happens. The point I was trying to make was that I have of years of evidence of acceptance in spaces and regular interactions

There's this thing called 'rationalising the beauty away'…

Um, there's no amount of airbrushing that gonna make Maya Forstater look like Bella Haddid & its not as if those models don't get snapped in real life looking any different.

@TheGrayDeerplease could you answer the question about how you would like women to show their discomfort about you being in a women’s single space please. I’ve never been brave enough to challlenge a trans identified man in a toilet queue and I really do not like having you or any other men who identify as women there. I have previously been the victim of voyeurism in a changing room and having males in women’s spaces makes me feel deeply disturbed and upset.

i have decided that next time I’m in this situation with a trans identified man in a women’s toilet I want to speak up and let them know how uncomfortable I feel. What would be the best way of doing this please? I’m usually quite a quiet and polite person.

Thank you

The sound of biological variation ignorance…

Yes, biology is real & not in the way you fantasise.

There is no 'variation' in skeletal structure...

It's literally how forensics determine a male or female skeleton that's been found in a ravine or something.

They don’t want to pass as a real woman because that would mean being ignored, trusted as safe and boring, insignificant.
They want to pass as a trans woman, as in to be adored, oh look you’re “being” a woman, good for you, congratulations go you etc etc. Or they want to go undercover to spy on us, listen to us, be the sinister fly on the wall, “ha! They didn’t even notice me”. Or they want to beat us a being women, be more beautiful more sassy more whatever they’ve decided - with their boy/man brains - being a woman is. Or they want to look terrifyingly unreal, to force themselves on us, so they can see the fear in our eyes and know we can’t do anything about it. I feel so sad for those with real gender dysphoria who want to actually be a woman and change sex but these are the few with mental health issues who will never find happiness persuing that because it’s not possible- they’ve been sold a lie and need support to accept who they are, and live how they feel best as a man. Wear a dress and make up just use your own flippin loos!!
Don’t forget when we thought they were all about adoration and acceptance we supported them, believed their poor me I get so bullied stories, but now we know all the bullshit and domination (and worse) they (not all I know) seek it’s another matter.

Lol, a few self elected undemocratic spokes people smells a lot like Patriarchal imposition to me.

Erm, that doesn't even make sense. Women can't be the patriarchy, by definition. But your mansplaining your ignorance is hilarious.

Polls? Yup & they are just sooo reliable.

Since when was dunny policing an electoral issue? Maybe in the UK where a media driven moral panic had a power hungry Starmer quaking in his slippers but not anywhere else.

Get back to us when you have real global political push back in the streets but until then this is a purely manufactured top down localised issue.