A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

And you don't get to give away other women's rights to single sex spaces.

Years ago when all this was in its infancy a local boy was gay, he was also slim, not tall, quite delicate hands, can't remember his feet but nothing masculine about his jaw or brow. Years later I was working in admin for local police force. He was now living as a woman and working as a prostitute. In my city there was a distinct area for male prostitutes and that wasn't where he worked. When he was arrested the man he was with refused to believe he was a man. A police officer who was new to vice squad was amazed when he was told he was male, he thought he was being set up as a joke.

I saw his wedding photos a couple of years later, he made a beautiful bride in his white meringue dress and veil.

Maybe people can usually tell, maybe they can in 99% of cases but I don't believe you can always tell.

You’ve done actual research 😂? You’ve entered a thesis to an academic institution, conducted actual studies yourself, analysed and presented the data and had it peer reviewed? Or do you mean you’ve looked on the internet?

You provided absolutely no data at all. Only opinion pieces.

Mine is actual data with ACTUAL....NAMES.

If you choose Prick News and the williams 'institute' over COURT REPORTS, then that is your right...

I wrote to a clothing retailer this year. Their clothes are lovely but I “saw” a man in the catalogue modelling them. Then I couldn’t “un-see” it. I wrote to explain my concerns about being a large female and how “seeing” a male model made me not want to buy their clothes. Except I didn’t mention the male part - I just said could they choose models who look less androgynous. I doubt it will have an effect but I think marketers need to remember that sales are aspirational - what typical woman wants to look like a man? Most women won’t react so obviously as me but now I’m aware I’m choosing to avoid shops that aren’t entirely celebrating femaleness in their advertising. Why should I shop their if they don’t care about women?

I agree with you, OP. Often it’s possible to tell, but certainly it’s possible to be deceived. The point for me is that the deception proves nothing except deceit

I've had a quick look at the podcast and if you think Arden's male sex is not easily identifiable you need an eye test. And no, women really wouldn't be jealous of those looks.

It's really simple. No, you don't pass. You can try and disguise your digital appearance. Special effects are amazing and AI is a game changer.

In reality. After years of body modification and continuous constant effort you are talking about 1 in 10,000 TIMs who occasionally pass and 1 in a million who might consistently pass. 100% - nope, never.

Posting this summary from the YouGov UK tracker

Comparing 2018 answers too.

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 27 [16] 12% 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 15%
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74% 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 26%
Don't know 25 [22] 14%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 11%

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 25%. 2018 - 2024* this is decrease by 17%
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 58%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 25%
Don't know 25 [23] 17%. 2018 - 2024 *this is decrease by 8%

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 13%
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%. 2018 - 2024* *this is increase by 20%
Don't know 23 [21] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 29%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 18%
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 55%. 2018 - 2024 this is increase by 28%
Don't know 26 [25] 16%. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

No surgery question was asked in 2018

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...
Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Should be allowed 26 [25] 19%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 7%
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 63%. 2020 - 2024* *this is increase by 17%
Don't know 28 [27] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 10%

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 23%. 2020 - 2024* *this is decrease by 8%
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 60%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 19%
Don't know 27 [25] 18%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

And finally:

This question was also not asked in 2018

Do you believe that allowing transgender women to use spaces reserved for women, such as women's toilets or changing rooms, does or does not present a genuine risk of harm to women? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024
Does not present a genuine risk of harm 39 [32] 25%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 14%
Does present a genuine risk of harm 32 [39] 55%. 2020 - 2024 this is increase by 23%
Don't know 29 [29] 20%. 2020 - 2024 this is decrease by 9%

d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2018.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Transgender_data_2020.pdf

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/Internal_TransgenderIssues_220720_final_extraXbreak_FINAL.pdf

https://ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/YouGov_-_Transgender_study_2024.pdf

There was also a Sex Matters poll done within days of the YouGov tracker. These are the results of it compared to in the past too. Just pulling them together, the Sex Matters (2533 adults polled) results were often more supportive than the YouGov results (2078 adults polled).

https://d3nkl3psvxxpe9.cloudfront.net/documents/SexMatters_Gender_241219_ZMwbM2T.pdf

In the following questions a transgender woman is someone who was biologically male at birth, but now identifies as a woman. A transgender man is someone who was biologically female at birth, but now identifies as a man.

Do you think transgender women should or should not be allowed to…
Take part in women's sporting events?2018 in italics, 2022 in [brackets vs 2024 SM (YG 2024)
Should be allowed 27 [16] 11%SM 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 16% (YG 12%)
Should not be allowed 48 [61] 74%SM 2018 - 2024 SM this is increase by 26% (YG 74%)
Don't know 25 [22] 15%SM. 2018 - 2024 this is SM decrease by 10% (YG 14%)

Use women's changing rooms? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 42 [34] 27%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is decrease by 15% (YG 25%)*
Should not be allowed 33 [43] 56%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is increase by 23% (YG 58%)
Don't know 25 [23] 17%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 8% (YG 17%)*

Use women's toilets? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 46 [38] 33%SM. 2018 - 2024 SMthis is decrease by 13% (YG 29%)
Should not be allowed 30 [41] 51%SM. 2018 - 2024SM this is increase by 20% (YG 55%)
Don't know 23 [21] 16%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 7% (YG 16%)

Use women's refuges? 2022 in brackets vs 2024
Should be allowed 47 [39] 31%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 16% (YG 29%)
Should not be allowed 27 [36] 47%SM. 2018 - 2024 SM this is increase by 20% (YG 52%)
Don't know 26 [25] 22%SM. 2018 - 2024 this is decrease SM by 4% (YG 20%)

And the specific non surgical question from 2020:

Do you think a transgender woman who has not had gender reassignment surgery should or should not be allowed to...

Use women's changing rooms? 2020 in italics, 2022 in [brackets] vs 2024SM (YG 2024)
Should be allowed 26 [25] 20%SM. 2020 - 2024SM this is decrease by 6% (YG 19%)
Should not be allowed 46 [48] 62%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is increase by 16% (YG 63%)
Don't know 28 [27] 18%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 10% (YG 18%)

Use women's toilets?
Should be allowed 31 [29] 26%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 5% (YG 23%)
Should not be allowed 41 [46] 58%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is increase by 17% (YG 60%)
Don't know 27 [25] 16%SM. 2020 - 2024 SM this is decrease by 11% (YG 18%)

This was the only way I could think of to present the tracking in a way that MN would cope with. It is messy, but the information is there and the links to check.

Posting a yougov poll from one area of the UK is not indicative to the opinions of the rest of the UK.

Yes. It's called court....reports. And police....reports.

Not Prick News opinion pieces. 😂

But if women weren’t expecting to see men in their space, as we are now conditioned to do, nobody would give a second glance to women who aren’t petite and curvy.
Even if we did see a woman who was masculine looking, it only takes a nano second to clock that they were a women. And even then, if you weren’t sure, you wouldn’t feel worried because you know that men wouldn’t be in that space anyway so there would be no need to challenge them and make them feel degraded.

I am tall, quite broad and have hands like shovels and size 9 feet. I don’t wear make up or overtly feminine clothing but have only once been mistaken for a man. That was in a library and it was because I was carrying a black rucksack, as the mistakee told me as she apologised.

(‘assigned’ female at birth? Please…🙄)

And further actual data for you here. Sorry, it's not from GLAAD, Advocate or Prick News...

UK, America, and NZ.

No.

You absolutely ARE causing distress to women when you use female single sex spaces, and you are doing it on purpose and in full knowledge that there are women who will be distressed by your presence. Stop it!

You cannot plead ignorance because you've been told.

Continue as you are in using these female single sex spaces, and you show everyone exactly what kind of man you are, a predatory one. Or you can stop it and stick to male single sex spaces.

You are also breaking the law when you enter female single sex spaces.

No it isn’t. There is vast amounts of data that can be presented to argue several different perspectives on what is a deeper societal problem with bigotry and fear around what some people perceive to be their biological rights but are actually sociologically conditioned opinions.

I am always willing to be challenged in my views and will concede to facts and data. I will not, however, believe that trans women are the root of men’s transgressions and need to be treated as potential criminals just because someone thinks so after reading a news report.

I 'know' two trans people in real life. One is a former colleague from about 18 years ago. The absolute last person I ever expected to transition and they are very obviously trans, haven't yet had surgery.

The other is the partner of a friend of a friend. I met them at a large party a couple of years back and nobody had a clue. To the point that when the friend of a friend told us, everybody though he was joking. They've had top and bottom surgery.

Both absolutely lovely people, FWIW.

I'm female, not particularly observant admittedly, and I've failed to note transwomen before now.

I mean, you can very clearly see most of them. But on a couple of occasions it's only come out later that they are trans and I wouldn't have known.

I'm GC btw and I loathe the violence, physical and societal and verbal, that so much of the trans movement use. Women's safe spaces need to be for women and there's so very much of a whiff of 'we hate you and want to hurt you' about the extremes of the trans movement. But I can't say that I have been able to detect every single transwoman no. There may well have been others that I simply never realised.

Transwomen are male. Fully intact males with penis and testicles. You have not given even one argument for why a fully intact male should be in women and girls change rooms and toilets.

You forgot philosophically (although ideologically maybe covers this) and logically.

It blows my mind that a portion of society wants us to pretend there is literally no difference between a woman and a trans-identifying male. That they are actually the same. That we should lie to each other, and to ourselves.

I think this is the most telling thing that trans women are men. The feelings of a few blokes who get kicks out of using women's spaces is more important than women's safety.

No I don't consent but as I value my safety I keep my mouth shut if I encounter a man in women's spaces. Silence is not consent. Nor does it allow men to break the law.

I’m an adult human female, and my partner is an adult human male. His hands are smaller than mine. However, even if he removed all the hair from the backs of his hands and we both had short, bare nails, there would be no mistaking which were the male hands and which were the female hands if you were to observe them side-by-side in isolation from our bodies. The bone structure and musculature is different.

Regarding the 'cubicle' discussion.

While I understand that some people don't have a problem with who uses female single sex spaces, other female people do have a problem. It is not just about safety, it is about privacy too.

Toilets are not just used behind a closed cubicle door. There are quite a few aspects of female toilet usage that happen in the public space, or even now still occur with a toilet door jammed open.

Well from my personal experience here is a list.

I have had to use the toilet while having a pram / pushchair jammed into the door with groceries.

I have had to have my mum use the public toilet because the disable toilet was not available and had her wheelchair jammed in the door because I couldn't leave her sit to move it and shut the door.

I have had breastmilk leaks / children's vomit / food spilled on my clothes and needed to have an unbuttoned top to dry the top under the hand drier.

I have come across other women quite regularly washing out their tops or their skirts etc and drying them enough to put back on .

I have friends who have miscarried in toilets and needed assistance and for that to be female people to make it more comfortable.

If you as a female person have not experienced these issues, that doesn't mean it is not happening. I am glad that you have never needed to do this things, it is uncomfortable and can be quite humiliating. But at least, in a female only toilet, it is a little better.

I think when people think of toilet usage, maybe they have never had to use the toilets in any other way other than behind a closed door. But the needs are still there and they are real for many female people to be able to engage in public life.

Really your Op doesn't make sense. You say you have never mistaken a transwoman for a biological woman, but surely you wouldn't know .

And if they’ve had those body parts removed?

Just let people, human beings, use a toilet like a decent person would. Men rape all over the world. It’s the crime that needs addressing, not the outfit.

I sort of agree about toilets becoming a distraction but not because of TiM using them (or not), but more because of how gender ideologists pick up the issue and start arguing on a related but tangential aspect. It pivots to become about do we demand to check genitals, or to having a trans friend who absolutely passes or to - and this one was interesting - whether we believe in the bible… etc.

In doing so, we’ve conveniently lost track of the central argument about men staying out of female spaces.

The original question was do we always know a TW is male. Of course IMO the answer has to be no. Likely most of the time but not all the time (at least I was surprised by the ending in The Crying Game). In the nearest big city I see more and more blokes wearing dresses. Don’t know if they think they pass or are just being transgressive. However, there will be many many TW who believe they ‘pass’ but don’t.

In part because they’re men, but the cohort of trans friends of the DCs it’s because they’re young and self centred and autistic. Lacking maturity and insight into the minds of others, they conflate thinness and ‘feminine’ looks with passing. I shake my head at how these 5’11" males with size 10 shoes think they pass as women but they genuinely do think so because they live in their heads / online. Alas, the DC go along with it thinking they’re being kind.

I know this is from way back at page 1 but I have failed to catch up this morning. When I went to bed there were no responses, and this morning when I woke up there were 8ish pages!

I live in a tiny and I mean TINY village. A village surrounded by farmland for miles and thinly populated with retirees, holiday home owners and various local workers. We had two men who claim to be women in separate households in this village.

And I fail to get your point. Are you trying to say the poster is lying? If not, all you can be implying is that there are even more than she thinks she sees since you do seem to suggest men who claim womenhood are there, she just has not clocked them. So there are the ones she has noticed plus the ones she has perceived as women so not noticed as men.

It's probably just me not understanding your point (that's what women say when they don't want to be considered aggressive or confrontational. Women also act in passive ways when men are in their spaces, for their own safety).

My DH wouldn't assault a woman, can he go in the Ladies then?
Lets just let "nice" men in shall we?