A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

'I will not, however, believe that trans women are the root of men’s transgressions and need to be treated as potential criminals just because someone thinks so after reading a news report.'

Firstly, has any person here stated that 'transwomen are the root of men’s transgressions'? or have they merely pointed out that they remain male. Because, they do remain male. Please post any paper that shows that male people who say they are female are no longer 'male people'.

Secondly, as has been said before on this thread, for safeguarding to be robust in publicly accessible single sex provisions, all male people need to be excluded over the age of about 8. Safeguarding treats all male people the same. To use your emotive language, safeguarding for those provisions treat all male people as if they are potential criminals.

Can you please explain in detail just what process exactly removes a group of male people who say they are female from the general UK male population for the application of robust safeguarding principles for accessing female single sex spaces?

"Men rape all over the world"

Yeah exactly, you are correct! So lets keep all the men out of female single sex spaces!

What (if any) benefit is there to women to let men into female single sex spaces do you think? I'll give you a hint, there isn't any benefit to women!

They are still male! They still have male height and male strength, and we don't want them seeing us getting undressed or washing out our blouse.

Do you really not understand that? Just support female only spaces, like a decent human being would.

It's not just about rape. It's about PRIVACY AND DIGNITY away from the male gaze, where we are in a semi state of undress! Where we are miscarrying! Where we are fleeing other men. Where we are rinsing out blood-stained underwear or skirts, or blouses with baby sick or even wine on them.

It doesn't take much to be a decent human being and respect the hard won sex-based rights and spaces of the female sex.

Exactly. There seems to be this bizarre idea amongst trans activists that if a man can pass as a woman this somehow proves that he IS a woman. It reminds me of that case of the 30 year old bloke who went back to his old school, pretended to be 17 and joined the A-level class. When people found out, did they say, "Oh fair play, he look like a teenager, let's all accept him as one?" Or were they horrified by the deceit? We all know the answer, don't we?

I asked upthread @Mamma246 to get an understanding of your position on this.
Is it your belief that TiM have a reduced risk profile (as a subset of the class of male)to women and therefore should have access to all previously designated/understood to be female spaces - so women's toilets, women's prisons, womens rape counselling services, female wards, female dormitories (including school trips) or just to spaces with cubicles (women's toilets/sports facilities)?

Why can't we all, as decent people, use the toilet provided for our sex?

I don't understand the focus on height. I've known men who are 5'4" and women who are 6' (relatives so I know the were female from birth) I don't think height proves anything.

What difference does this make for accessing female single sex provisions?

Do you think that a male person without a penis and testicles is no longer able to commit sex and violence offences ? Do you think that a male person without a penis and testicles can no longer harm a female person?

Do you think that a male person without a penis and testicles have all the rest of their male body cues removed too so that no female person ever can correctly identify their sex?

Why should that group of male people be treated differently regarding access to female single sex provisions?

Your tone is antagonistic, which leads me to believe that you want to engage in an argument. Can I just confirm, before I decide whether to do as you request, that you are open minded to this topic of conversation? Because I am unwilling to engage further with people of a certain fixed mindset.

You said that trans women are fully intact men.

Ridiculous comment! As though all women care about is how we look, and not what we can do.

Confusion about biological rights? What are biological rights?

Sociologically conditioned opinions about gender are damaging and should be challenged at every turn. Ideas about masculinity and femininity should not be linked to sex.

Sex is binary and immutable. The differences between the sexes should not be extended beyond the material differences arising.

You seem to object to female only provision, believing that some males should be included. I think you are framing the rationale for single sex provision as sociologically driven and therefore it’s erroneous to determine access by sex?

I expect you want mixed sex provision to have some limiters, rather than just open to all. What are these? Are they based on identity? If so, what case would you make for this being a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim?

If the aim is protection from male violence, would you also include other vulnerable males?

I used to be a proud Transwomen are women advocate and in a previous job actively defended and supported a trans colleague to use the women’s toilets.

in my current job, I sometimes work in a court. I was working with a man who had a long history of violence including domestic abuse. He told me he was now identifying as a woman. Apart from long hair, he had not made any other changes. He was wearing men’s clothes. I told him I would support and affirm his gender identity and felt proud of myself for being kind and inclusive.

I then watched that man walk into the public women’s toilets right behind a woman who had fled the family courtroom in hysteria. That was what peaked me. I have never referred to a trans identified man as a woman since and I am sorry I have done so previously. I cannot believe I was so captured by this ideology.

This is a government building. The women who use the toilets can be victims of the worst types of abuse and in the most vulnerable and distressed states. The Supreme Court ruling cannot be enacted soon enough and it is disgraceful that this is allowed to continue in a court building.

Where did I say that? Please point it out, because I can only assume that you have mistaken me for someone else.

So you’ve not done actual research then. Ok.

So true. If sex is important to you but are a man and would prefer to be a woman. Too bad,so sad, I'd like to be a billionaire. Not happening.
FGS males are men and females are women. Not difficult. Also what I want to know is why these men want to be women? I know about AGP, and the poor men in Iran, and the Phillipino lady boys ; other than that why would you want to be in the sex class that does the vast majority of child care, house work etc and loses out on the career ladder due to childbirth and maternity leave. Obviously men cant give birth and those freaks that try to breastfeed should be locked away; but what is the appeal? I don't think any of it is grounded in reality. I worry about the babies taken from their mums in the US.

No - you seem to have misunderstood my message. There was previous post context. I completely understand if you don’t want to read it, but that’s not my argument at all.

I don't think at this point that you are in a position to tone police other posters.

I have a mind that is open to seeing alternative arguments and if I find evidence convincing, I will always include that evidence in my understanding of the topic. Hence it is why I generally read most links posted and query posters on what they have posted.

Isn't that what most mature adults do to assimilate information? Read widely and from many different view points to gain an understanding?

Exceptions don’t invalidate a trend.

Height is an identifying characteristic for being male or female when paired with other characteristics. It isn’t a unique identifier in the way a penis is!

At the end of the day, the whole point of 'trans' is that it is a deception. With all that that implies. I don't really uunderstand why TRA's should point to a tiny handful who may 'pass', as if that is some kind of gotcha. It ain't.

Also what I want to know is why these men want to be women? I know about AGP, and the poor men in Iran, and the Phillipino lady boys ; other than that why would you want to be in the sex class that does the vast majority of child care, house work etc and loses out on the career ladder due to childbirth and maternity leave. Obviously men cant give birth and those freaks that try to breastfeed should be locked away; but what is the appeal?

A word that starts with F and rhymes with getish.

That’s quite an exhaustive list — impressive commitment to categorisation. To answer your question: safeguarding decisions aren’t based on personal “beliefs” but on evidence, legal frameworks, and risk assessment, not sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.
The Equality Act 2010 allows single-sex exemptions precisely so that providers can apply proportionate measures in contexts where safety, privacy, or trauma-informed care require them — such as prisons, counselling, or dormitories. That’s not about granting automatic access or blanket exclusion; it’s about professional discretion and context, not internet hypotheticals.
So no, it’s not about anyone having a “reduced risk profile”; it’s about individual safeguarding decisions made by qualified professionals, rather than categorical fear-mongering about where someone might go to the toilet.

Most of them are, about 98% retain their genetalia.

Even those who have had sugery and removed their penis and testicles are still men!

Do you think there should be sex separated spaces at all?

Or should it be based on past evidence of criminality?

'So no, it’s not about anyone having a “reduced risk profile”; it’s about individual safeguarding decisions made by qualified professionals, rather than categorical fear-mongering about where someone might go to the toilet.'

Please explain how individual safeguarding decisions are made by qualified professionals in relation to who can and cannot access public female single sex spaces? How does this work in detail please?