A Question of Some Considerable Delicacy

[theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw]

Ever since FWS, we've been told by TRAs that the country is awash with transwomen who are heartbroken and terrified because they've been told to stop using women's facilities, and this has outed them to their colleagues.

I'm finding this hard to believe, because I have virtually never mistaken a transwoman for a woman. There have been previous threads about this, from which I gather that the scientific consensus is that humans are very good at sexing other humans from an early age.

Maybe I am just wrong, though, and have been fooled many times. And maybe some people aren't very perceptive. According to a recent thread, Morgane Oger thinks he could only accurately sex about 70% of a mixed crowd; a PP on the same thread thinks Maya Forstater looks like a man.

So I would like to hear other people's experiences of this (please try not to insult or offend!). Were you ever surprised, when a woman turned out to be a man?

This piece about Kelly v Leonardo reveals the mindset:

https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2025/10/terf-employee-admits-to-secret-cis-only-bathroom-at-work-i-wont-sacrifice-my-privacy-my-dignity/

Kelly also admitted to speculating over her colleagues’ gender identities and tracking their bathroom usage, telling the tribunal that over a period of six to nine months, she identified three people she believed to be trans who were using the women’s restrooms.

This seems to misrepresent what was happening. MK was not speculating: she knew that they were men, surely?

I'm interested primarily in what this means for the law, in particular in relation to Article 8 ECHR (right to private life). TRAs interpret this as an unlimited right to conceal one's sex in every situation. But how can even a limited such right exist, if there is no way in reality that such concealment can reliably be achieved, from everyone, all of the time?

Are they actually demanding the right to force everyone to pretend to be fooled? That's not a privacy right.

A lot of these links focus on the feelings men who identify as women will have if they are “excluded” from our toilets. Why wouldn’t women’s feelings of violation matter at least equally as much?

A list of trans agenda'ed sources. The williams 'institute' a trans think tank, has no respect at all in the community and has admitted their studies are very limited and unrealiable.
Prick News is a misogynistic anti-feminist pro-trans site whose owners have been charged with sexual abuse and harassment.
So too with Advocate. A LGBT online opinion newspaper.

The fact is, I gave you an image with ACTUAL NAMES of people who have committed crimes. Actual....NAMES. Even one (1) of those is one too many.

And then there are these, if the previous ones were too much reading for you:

Guidance produced by the Brighton & Hove City Council for schools (2024) indicates that in their local experience they have “seen no evidence … that a trans child or young person … using facilities aimed at a gender that is not the one registered at birth presents a threat to other children or young persons using the facilities.” Brighton & Hove City Council
A YouGov poll in 2022: When asked if trans women (who had not undergone gender-reassignment surgery) should be allowed to use women’s toilets, only 29% of Brits said “yes”, with 39% believing that allowing trans women to use women's toilets or changing rooms poses a “genuine risk of harm” to women. YouGov

which shows that your views are unsubstantiated and in the minority

Ah of course, the traditional response of people assaulted by information.

do your own research if you don’t believe it

The question is not about trans women, it's about "women with a more masculine physiology."
ie assigned female at birth who unfortunately have a naturally masculine appearance. ie women who aren't petite and light boned with curves in all the right places. Maybe she has larger proportioned hands and of course Adam's apples aren't naturally limited to just men (that's a myth).

You said there was zero cases.

I showed you NAMES. I gave you what you asked. Now you are trying to move the goal posts.

Even ONE of those, is ONE TOO MANY.

@Mamma246 the law is perfectly clear that men shouldn't enter women's single sex spaces.

Why on earth do you think this one group of men should be supported to keep breaking the law?

The law also used to say that women can’t own property or be educated.

One wonders how many women and girls have to be affected before @Mamma246 thinks that's sufficient number to oppose men in women's setting? How many goes beyond 'acceptable collateral damage' in mamma's eyes.

Lets have that number ..,

So you think that men, any man should be able to enter female spaces then @Mamma246 or just some men?

I agree that everyone has differing capabilities of correctly identifying the sex of a person. It also depends largely on whether the person is focused or distracted at that time too.

The issue is, of course, when someone who lacks the ability to reliably identify a male person's sex believes their personal experience is universal.

Is that supposed to be a joke? 🙄

The law is clear. You have to use the toilet / changing room / single sex space for your sex. No guidelines will change that, and the EHRC has also said that people / organisations need to follow the SC judgment and not wait for guidelines.

Brighton. A captured council who wouldn't provide security for the women at filia.

The evidence and YouGov polls shows you are in the ever decreasing minority, and getting smaller by the year:

Look, mine is data, yours is opinion and media reports. If that’s how you chose to validate your emotional responses, then you had that right.

Contra facta non valent argumenta

Look at the more recent polling instead of cherry-picking a stat from 2022.

Your examples are of illegitimate discrimination against female people though. Excluding all male people (in some instances those under 8-9 years old can be included) is legitimate in the UK when it is related to access of female single sex provisions.

Every argument on the bingo card has 'but what about the man' as its basis. Well, the men can sort that out can't they. Almost every society that is, and has ever been, has been patriarchal. And in the last 15 years or so, organisations such as Stonewall have proved what huge power they have.
So with all that power laid on a foundation of millenia of patriarchy, I'm sure the males who don't want to share spaces with other males can argue for, and fairly quickly win, third/fourth/etc spaces.
They certainly don't need female spaces. And the women who want to support these males, or indeed any women who, for whatever reason, don't like female-only spaces can join the males in these spaces. The allegedly vulnerable trans-identifying males get the validation of not only their own space, but a space with women who want to support them. And the women who don't approve of other women's need for single sex provision can feel validated in their kindness. TRAs and handmaids should be happy with that solution.
I never understand why TRAs don't fight for that. It makes far more sense.

Just like you were 'assaulted' with NAMES.

I have done my actual research, you, have not. All you've done is list trans-friendly/anti-women sources. I, used neutral sources and YouGov.

Brigitte Macron 😉

Look up the other evidence yourself. I’m not your teacher. I can’t quote it all 🙄

Lot’s of the distress and upset highlighted here would not arise if the label given to provision clearly denoted both sexes were entitled to use it (should that be the case).

If provision is intended for both sexes and accesses is determined by gender identity, no female should object to a transwomen using it.

The issue at hand is transwomen are legitimately excluded from female only provision because they are male (if they were not, they wouldn’t be a transwomen) but this presents significant issues for them if they don’t want people to know they are trans.

Calling this legitimate exclusion ‘transphobia’ is ridiculous - it’s female only provision and transwomen are, by definition, male.

Expecting females to forgo female only provision so transwomen can keep their trans status secret is a huge ask. Instead of acknowledging this, and listening to why some object, calling this transphobia is ridiculous.

I have used the term ‘ridiculous’ above. I think in some cases, this applies. In other cases I would use the term ‘sinister’.

To go back to the original question. I dont know if I've missed any men pretending to be women but the last person I saw who I assumed to be trans was a broad shouldered man with beard and a dress. He was probably very proud of himself but he looked like an attention seeking dick, walking down the middle of the pavement.

It's noticeable that the social media images of men pretending to be women and those photographed in daily life are usually very different. I say usually because everyone I've seen is but there may be ones I have not seen.

I'm one of those women who tras always claim would be harassed in toilets. Not ever happened.

So that is your excuse for fully intact males entering the ladies?

You really, really don't give a stuff about women and girls safety, privacy or decency, do you? You really hate women. And btw, feminists FOUGHT to get our own spaces. We, are not going to let misogynists like you overturn their hard work.

You should look it up because your 2022 stat is out of date and current polling no longer supports your point.