A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

Nothing to debate.

Then this isn't the thread for you.

I've been away for a while. Came back yesterday.
So FWR not only required a separate section to discuss these issues (sex and gender vs. chat) but now requires a separate thread within that section because....the rest of the section is disrespectful ?
And isn't diverse enough.

I think you're trying to achieve something here, I'm just not quite sure what. I do have an inkling what it might be.
But anyway, I'm out

I doubt we'll get anywhere Tandora. Because you believe women don't have the right to say no to men in their spaces - which most of us disagree with.

So what do you do in the meantime about single sex changing rooms, toilets sport, rape support etc?

You can't ignore for 400 years until the 'patriarchy' is 'dismantled'.

You also can't / shouldn't ignore that women have different bodies to men, so lots of the 'gender based' things you describe are actually sex based. Women can't identify out of periods etc.

What do you mean a "diverse" range of opinions. I see threads with a diverse range of opinions all the time. Perfectly fine. this feels like a thread where you only want people who think that TWAW?

My opinion is that people are born either male or female. I think there are a bunch of biological realities that come with that - the (potential) ability to have children vs the (potential ability) to provide sperm to create children. Greater (average) physical size and strength (as a man). Other biological realities.

There are also lots of social norms that come with being male or female that are entirely constructed, the vast bulk of which are around appearance etc.

Then there are a whole lot of things that have become gendered that are more complicated, and are the result of a combination of biological realities and the impact those have had over thousands of years of society - eg women tending to be in more "caring" roles, workplace leadership being dominated by men etc.

If someone is a man they are a man. If that man wants to wear a dress, that's entirely fine because that is just a social norm and it's got nothing to do with actually being a man or a woman. If a woman is woring in a "traditionally" male dominated role and acting in "traditionally" male ways, she is still a woman.

Is that a diverse opinion? Respectfully delivered?

Are you suggesting that these mixed sex spaces should be rolled out world wide? How would that work with other cultures where women are segregated such as Afghanistan?

I agree. People must post as they see fit, but I’d rather they didn’t do this

So you are advocating all spaces to be mixed sex?

No.

There are two binaries I would like to dismantle here:

All (spaces) / No (spaces)

"Mixed sex" / "Single sex".

If we are going to accommodate diversity in society we need more nuanced and less binary thinking.

Can single sex spaces exist alongside mixed sex spaces?
That way everyone has a place where they feel comfortable.
Can the single sex spaces be based on biological sex observed at birth?

I’m a biological woman. I identify as female, i.e. the female gender. Please can you tell me @Tandora how I should conform to my gender?

It seems to me that "No" is a perfectly reasonable response to trans activists and their insane, anti-women and anti-LGB demands.

No, no no.

Whatever else I post on this thread please remember that if you think I type nonsense you can always delete every word in your mind and replace them with the single word "NO".

this sort of post is really just very silly.

If this is what you think, then rather than the word salad you've used here, can you provide some concrete examples? So what does this nuanced and less binary thinking actually look like?

Again, it's all very well asking for a "respectful" and "diverse" discussion, but completely pointless if you're only tossing out silly little coments that work better as facebook memes.

I could agree but you use sex/ gender.
These are completely separate concepts.
So yes men including transwomen wearing stereotypical women's clothes are gnc. What they are not are women in the sense of sex i.e. adult human feelings.

Before I'm out out. Respectfully Tandora, it seems to me that you're trying to create a TRA/TWAW style space within what I assume is largely a GC board. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I just wonder why you don't ask Mumsnet to create a separate board for Trans Rights Activism and discussion.

If this is where you are at/ coming from, I don't think this is the thread for you.

This is a thread for dialogue, with the aim for productive exchange where we can learn from each other.

So, a man who claims to be trans is gender non-conforming whether he -

Has a male body, an NB gender ID and male clothes
Has a male body, an NB gender ID and female clothes
Has a male body, an NB gender ID and neutral clothes
Has a male body, a trans'woman' gender ID and male clothes
Has a male body, a trans'woman' gender ID and female clothes
Has a male body, a trans'woman' gender ID and neutral clothes

You seem to be suggesting that gender non-conformity is all about what is in your head and nothing to do with how you present.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. This is a thread for people with a diversity of opinions on this subject who want to engage in a productive dialogue, with the intention of sharing, listening and learning about different points of view.

Yes, what do you mean by this? Actual examples of real life to make it clear please.

These are completely separate concepts

I do not think that sex and gender are completely separate concepts. I think this is part of where "gender critical feminism" has completely lost its way theoretically.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way an exchange would be "productive" would be if the "be kind" crowd could provide me with a concrete answer to my repeated questions on why I must be ind to a man in a dress in the changing room because he'll feel uncomfortable and unsafe in a men's room, but he doesn't feel the need to be kind to me whenI feel unsafe.

Whenever I ask this question on BIL's many many facebook posts, he deletes my question. Doesn't even engage. And I've yet to see a single person on a thread like this who is able to offer me a useful answer as to why I have to be kind but no one else does. Not the man in my space. Not the men in the space he SHOULD be in etc.

All three of the posters I originally tagged are gender critical feminists.

I believe I am the only poster on this thread who rejects gender critical feminism.

And then 4. "gender non-confirming".

Sex - unchangin biological reality based on gametes. For the purposes of a debate on trans issues eeryone is XX female or XY male (people with DSDs are a tiny percentage and nothing to do with trans or the debate)

Gender - regressive sex based stereotypes, which most progressive people have ditched 40 or 50 years ago, if not more. SOme are more closely linked to sex than others (the stereotype that women like pink has nothing to do with sex, whereas the stereotype that women are much better at caring and nurturing does.) It is interesting to note that men who meaninglessly claim a TW gender ID are very good at the stereotypes that have nothing to do with sex (eg wearing pink) but appalling at the stereotypes which do (has anyone seen a TW who has really steeped up in terms of nurturing, caring etc after coming out as someone who cannot accept their sex.)

Can I pull your attention back to this @Tandora ?

I look forward to an answer. Tandora seems to post in very good faith so I am sure one will come along very quickly.