A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

100%. Naive and (to put it bluntly) stupid women have as much right to be safe from men in toilets and changing rooms as any other woman. Anyone demanding mixed sex spaces is - whether they are arguing for an end to single sex spaces, or mixed sex in addition - effectively arguing that they want more sexual assaults on women.

OP can you be clear of your definitions of:
'Sex'
'Gender'
'Diversity'

And why you think positioning your thread as 'respectful' when you don't respect trans people yourself because you don't believe sex exists and if sex doesn't exist then nobody can be trans, and so you are disrespecting all the trans people that say they are the opposite sex.

There are countless testimonies from parents saying this is what happened to their child, and from people who have desisted/detransitioned who say it happened to them.

The middle ground is allowing TIMs to parade their paraphilias in public and trying hard to keep them safe in the men's.

I don’t have time today, but I will join in when I can. Thanks for this thread. I do appreciate the spirit in which it was started.

I'll take this.

I find it odd that you refer to sex in the following manner.
Spaces for (birth) women only,
Spaces for (birth) men only if they want/ need them.
It seems a convoluted way to avoid saying sex to try and keep it in the gender sphere. But freedom of speech to you, if that's how you want to speak it's your choice.

Using your language - In the event a (birth) man wanted to use a (birth) women only space would you be OK with them being excluded from that space? ( Assuming all your other space options list were available )
If we can agree on that, then we agree on more than we disagree on.

What do you think you can learn from the GC perspective?

Which areas of Genderist thought do you feel a little worried about?

LOL that’s the funniest post yet.

The trouble with this is that five of those spaces would be deeply unpopular with the vast majority, and the first space for actual women would be absolute detested by men rejecting manhood.

Relevant current thread about the level of “respectful dialogue” women get from genderist men https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5424926-men-in-dresses-smashed-all-the-windows-of-the-brighton-centre-last-night-because-women-arranged-to-meet-and-discuss-their-rights?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share

I am really interested in these questions too (although I would use language differently).

To me women with CAIS are unequivocally female - and they would also meet the SC definition of women in the EA 2010. I am interested in others opinions on this - do you accept women with CAIS as women? What about women with Swyer's syndrome? If so, do you accept that it is possible for women to have a male kareotype?

What do you make of the fact that birth females who have transitioned to male may be excluded from both women's and men's spaces under the new EHRC guidance?

IMHO all of your posts demanding women give up their rights are the most disrespectful on this thread. You performance yesterday of trauma trumps was so far beyond respectful I am genuinely astinished you are still able to post. I can only assume the women of mumsnet support Operation Let Them Speak.

Anyway, I’m off to chat to Bill Murray to find out how his day went.

This is a place for respectful dialogue, it is not for bullying, mocking other posters.

This is a place for respectful dialogue, it is not for bullying or undermining other posters.

Why do you deny the science of sterilization and the testimony of Taistock staff?

The two sides are women are female, and a woman is what someone knows that they are.

What is the middle ground, and what does that mean for society?

Some men are women? Some men, some of the time?

One of the things I find very difficult in this debate is the insistence by gender critical feminists that if women and trans women are in one space together then it is by definition a "mixed sex" space, that must be available to all (men). I understand the linguistic logic of this perspective, but it is totally dogmatic and binary thinking
How are you, personally, defining ‘sex’ and ‘gender’?
My sex is female - relating to my biology.
I do not have a gender identity because, for myself, I consider the concept of gender to be an outdated and oppressive social construct.

It doesn’t really matter what gender identity somebody in a single-sex space has, so long as they have the biology (sex) that corresponds to that single sex-space. I couldn’t care less what their gender identity is.

A single-sex space does, by definition, become mixed-sex if people of the opposite sex (sex, not gender) are in it.

It is also unreasonable as it completely fails to recognise that "trans women" (whether you believe they are a "subset of men" or not) still exist as a distinct category of people
”A distinct category” based on their gender identity. Not part of the group who have sex in common.

"countless" is certainly not a reasonable term.
These are exceptionally minority perspectives/ experiences in the trans community, which have been exploited for political purposes.

Then why are you trying to bully women into accepting men in their spaces when they repeatly tell you NO?

This post does open up areas I would really like to drill into with a genderist who is open minded and open to debate.

What do you understand "Gender critical feminism" to be? What is "the way" and what do you think has been lost? Why do you think that happened?

With hindsight, are there things that Genderism could have handled or could still be handling better?

What I mean practically is that there may be some spaces that we say are for women (understood to refer to "birth sex"). There may be other spaces that we say can be used by either/ both women or trans women.

What would be the point of the latter?

If you believe that disagreement on this subject is definitionally a form of bullying this is not the thread for you.

I disagree.

How do you explain the explosion of teenage girls and young women suddenly identifying as boys/men in the last decade?

I do NOT believe that disagreement on this subject is definitionally a form of bullying.

I believe that repeatly posting utter nonsense to try to bully women into accepting men in their spaces is bullying.