Original poster

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:15

rumred · 10/10/2025 12:10

I can't usually discuss any trans issues because I'm at neither end of the scale, I'm somewhere in the middle.
People with dicks are men. Men who've had surgery are trans women. People with vaginas are women, etc. In my opinion.
My main concern is the 1st category of men who, like so many men of whatever persuasion, are out to shit all over women in various ways.
I think people born in the wrong bodies are a tiny minority. I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.
Good luck with the thread @Tandora

Thanks so much for contributing this perspective.

I would honestly love to hear more from people like you "in the middle" as you say, on this thread.

We desperately need more people occupying the middle ground in this debate.

OP posts:

eatfigs · 10/10/2025 12:16

GCman · 10/10/2025 11:42

NO!

Tandora · 2025-10-10T10:16:35+00:00

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a _diverse range of opinions_ about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story. It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

Please don't do this.

WandaSiri · 10/10/2025 12:16

rumred · 10/10/2025 12:10

I can't usually discuss any trans issues because I'm at neither end of the scale, I'm somewhere in the middle.
People with dicks are men. Men who've had surgery are trans women. People with vaginas are women, etc. In my opinion.
My main concern is the 1st category of men who, like so many men of whatever persuasion, are out to shit all over women in various ways.
I think people born in the wrong bodies are a tiny minority. I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.
Good luck with the thread @Tandora

You can have genuine gender dysphoria and still be out to shit all over women. Point is, you're still male, whatever you have or haven't done to your body.

childofthe607080s · 10/10/2025 12:18

The question is

is a transwomen to you a type of male or female and therefore where would you fit them in say changing rooms or sport ?

Coatsoff42 · 10/10/2025 12:18

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:04

What I mean practically is that there may be some spaces that we say are for women (understood to refer to "birth sex"). There may be other spaces that we say can be used by either/ both women or trans women.

One of the things I find very difficult in this debate is the insistence by gender critical feminists that if women and trans women are in one space together then it is by definition a "mixed sex" space, that must be available to all (men). I understand the linguistic logic of this perspective, but it is totally dogmatic and binary thinking. It is also unreasonable as it completely fails to recognise that "trans women" (whether you believe they are a "subset of men" or not) still exist as a distinct category of people.

Edited

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Ahhh, ok thanks. I guess the same for men. Four changing rooms/toilets/sports teams etc.
Hmm.

WandaSiri · 10/10/2025 12:18

Anyway, I'm out. Shouldn't have let myself get sucked in again. This thread, like the previous one, is about attention-seeking and trying to feed her sense of superiority.

TheKeatingFive · 10/10/2025 12:18

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:15

Thanks so much for contributing this perspective.

I would honestly love to hear more from people like you "in the middle" as you say, on this thread.

We desperately need more people occupying the middle ground in this debate.

Show quote history

In order for there to be 'a middle' you'll need to tell us what you think women have in common with 'transwomen' that they don't have in common with other men.

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:20

TeenToTwenties · 10/10/2025 12:03

Biology is real and tangible. It is therefore possible to make laws etc based on biology.

'Gender identity' seems much more nebulous and open to misuse.

Therefore why should society be arranged based on 'gender identity' rather than sex?

This /\

But also, the majority of people support single sex spaces, whilst only a minority want to end women's rights.

So "no" to mixed sex spaces whether based on sense or basic democracy. (I note that the TQ+ are anti-democracy, pro authoritarianism)

WandaSiri · 10/10/2025 12:20

Ddakji · 10/10/2025 12:05

Women’s oppression isn’t gender-based, it’s sex-based.

And sexual violence is pretty binary given that 98% of it is committed by men and boys, male people, however they identify.

So your starting point for debate falls flat in its face from the get-go.

Exactly. Gender is sex-based oppression.

Darn it! Ok, I really am off now.

lechiffre55 · 10/10/2025 12:21

I'm hoping to get an answer to this please.
Can single sex spaces exist alongside mixed sex spaces?
That way everyone has a place where they feel comfortable.
Can the single sex spaces be based on biological sex observed at birth?

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:21

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:04

What I mean practically is that there may be some spaces that we say are for women (understood to refer to "birth sex"). There may be other spaces that we say can be used by either/ both women or trans women.

One of the things I find very difficult in this debate is the insistence by gender critical feminists that if women and trans women are in one space together then it is by definition a "mixed sex" space, that must be available to all (men). I understand the linguistic logic of this perspective, but it is totally dogmatic and binary thinking. It is also unreasonable as it completely fails to recognise that "trans women" (whether you believe they are a "subset of men" or not) still exist as a distinct category of people.

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Why do you hate women so much?

Original poster

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:22

rumred · 10/10/2025 12:10

I can't usually discuss any trans issues because I'm at neither end of the scale, I'm somewhere in the middle.
People with dicks are men. Men who've had surgery are trans women. People with vaginas are women, etc. In my opinion.
My main concern is the 1st category of men who, like so many men of whatever persuasion, are out to shit all over women in various ways.
I think people born in the wrong bodies are a tiny minority. I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.
Good luck with the thread @Tandora

I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.

I was so similar in this respect. I've often felt like I've had experiences that might be described as something akin to (a very mild version of) gender dysphoria.

As a child I hated anything where I felt that my "femaleness" was brought into play and used to define how people saw me/ what they thought I should be like/ what they thought I should do/ what they would allow me to do.

I thought of myself as being a sort of tomboy. I wanted to be a boy in a way, although I didn't really see myself as/ want to be a boy. But I wanted the freedom of being a boy, to not be subject to the degradation/ inferiorisation of being a girl.

OP posts:

Original poster

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:23

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:21

Why do you hate women so much?

Show quote history

This is not the thread for this.

OP posts:

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:24

Pamspeople · 10/10/2025 12:07

It's also legally correct though. Why can't other men enter a women's space if men who consider themselves to be women can? My husband is lovely and I consider him no threat to women. On what basis could you deny him access to women's spaces or services under your suggested approach?

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One might argue that, if there were no other differences, simply by not LARPing as a woman he is showing more respect than any TIM, and therefore has an automatically greater right to access women's spaces than TIMs do (not that I am saying he has any right)

OneAmberFinch · 10/10/2025 12:26

Theeyeballsinthesky · 10/10/2025 11:33

I think we'd need to agree definitions of 1. Sex 2. Gender 3. Diversity as a starting point

And "respectful"...

Original poster

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:26

lechiffre55 · 10/10/2025 12:21

I'm hoping to get an answer to this please.
Can single sex spaces exist alongside mixed sex spaces?
That way everyone has a place where they feel comfortable.
Can the single sex spaces be based on biological sex observed at birth?

Can single sex spaces exist alongside mixed sex spaces?

Yes of course. But I don't share your understanding of "single sex" and "mixed sex".

What I would like to see is lots of different types of spaces:

Spaces for (birth) women only,
Spaces for women + trans women,
Spaces for everyone
Spaces for (trans) women only if they want / need them.
Spaces for (trans) men only if they want/ need them
Spaces for men + trans men.
Spaces for (birth) men only if they want/ need them.

OP posts:

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:26

JadziaD · 10/10/2025 12:09

WHICH spaces? Give me some examples? Because I can't think of a single formal single sex space it's appropriate eto have a man in, even if he thinks he's a woman.

I can accept that there might be spaces that can be advertised as such and that women or transwomen could CHOOSE to use them. But that should be a choice, clearly articulated. And it's okay if bioloical women choose not to use those. eg, I probalby wouldn't join a pottery class that was advertised for women only that also accepted transwomen. But I can see many women being completely fine with that and enjoying that social interaction with someone who presents as female. Great, each to their own.

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I think it is vital to be 100% clear. Were sex matters sex matters.

Where sex does not matter neither does gender.

Everywhere (shops, libraries, restaurants, places of worship) needs to be mixed sex, APRT FROM those spaces where women need or want to be away from men (toilets, changing rooms, sports, a woman-only book group etc etc)

Original poster

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:26

OneAmberFinch · 10/10/2025 12:26

And "respectful"...

Show quote history

If you are struggling with the concept of "respectful" it is probably not the thread for you.

OP posts:

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/10/2025 12:26

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:22

I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.

I was so similar in this respect. I've often felt like I've had experiences that might be described as something akin to (a very mild version of) gender dysphoria.

As a child I hated anything where I felt that my "femaleness" was brought into play and used to define how people saw me/ what they thought I should be like/ what they thought I should do/ what they would allow me to do.

I thought of myself as being a sort of tomboy. I wanted to be a boy in a way, although I didn't really see myself as/ want to be a boy. But I wanted the freedom of being a boy, to not be subject to the degradation/ inferiorisation of being a girl.

Show quote history

If you had been young today there's a good chance you would have been encouraged to identify as a boy. And then you might not have had your children. Does that trouble you at all?

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 10/10/2025 12:26

Flakey99 · 10/10/2025 11:32

NO

No

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/10/2025 12:27

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:26

Can single sex spaces exist alongside mixed sex spaces?

Yes of course. But I don't share your understanding of "single sex" and "mixed sex".

What I would like to see is lots of different types of spaces:

Spaces for (birth) women only,
Spaces for women + trans women,
Spaces for everyone
Spaces for (trans) women only if they want / need them.
Spaces for (trans) men only if they want/ need them
Spaces for men + trans men.
Spaces for (birth) men only if they want/ need them.

Show quote history

Do you really think this is workable?

JamieCannister · 10/10/2025 12:28

rumred · 10/10/2025 12:10

I can't usually discuss any trans issues because I'm at neither end of the scale, I'm somewhere in the middle.
People with dicks are men. Men who've had surgery are trans women. People with vaginas are women, etc. In my opinion.
My main concern is the 1st category of men who, like so many men of whatever persuasion, are out to shit all over women in various ways.
I think people born in the wrong bodies are a tiny minority. I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.
Good luck with the thread @Tandora

How does being born in the wrong body work? Can you explain this scientifically or is it more akin to a religious belief?

borntobequiet · 10/10/2025 12:28

I often wonder if the real purpose of threads like this is to expose the weakness of genderist arguments, because that is what they inevitably do, time after time.

timesublimelysilencesthewhys · 10/10/2025 12:30

Tandora · 10/10/2025 11:44

No I don't think there is an essential conflict between the rights of women and girls and trans people. I believe that dismantling all forms of gender based control/ oppression/ hierarchy/ violence is necessary to dismantle patriarchy.

I believe that we can organise society in a way that accommodates a diversity of needs based on sex/gender.

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Whats the patriarchy?

Aren't you in danger of handing control over to men who know they are women, rather than the ones who know they arent, thereby achieve nothing?

Original poster

Tandora · 10/10/2025 12:30

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 10/10/2025 12:26

If you had been young today there's a good chance you would have been encouraged to identify as a boy. And then you might not have had your children. Does that trouble you at all?

Show quote history

If you had been young today there's a good chance you would have been encouraged to identify as a boy. And then you might not have had your children.

I do not believe/ accept this to be true at all.
In my view this is a completely irrational fear that has been stirred up in society through anti-trans moral panic. Similar as to what happened in the 80s around the increasing visibility of gay people in society (fears that children would be "converted" into homosexuality).

OP posts:

A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

NO!