A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

Do you believe that disagreement (with you) on this subject is definitionally disrespectful?

No which is why I posted this thread, inviting a dialogue between people who are interested in engaging in a productive exchange of difference in opinion.

So how should eg swimming pools organise changing rooms and toilets, given they probably don't have inifinte space?

I do not believe anyone can be born into the wrong body. It is yours, the only one you have.

If you believe you can be, are you saying that people born with disabilities are born into the wrong body? Are you really going there?

As opposed to all the other threads on this topic, which are presumably disrespectful, hence the need for this special one?

Except the whole concept of gender and gender conformity/non-conformity is hugely regressive. We had made advances in terms of sex equality over the past 50 years or so. We are now going backwards because of the level of pigeon holing associated with gender and conformity/non-conformity.

Gender has always been used as a tool of oppression by the patriarchy to keep women mainly, but also gender non-conforming and gay men, in "their place". What I believe we should be aiming to do is abolish the entire concept of gender and to consider sex in the very small number of areas where it matters (e.g. sports, showers, rape/abuse/etc counselling, refuges etc).

By stating there is no conflict between women's/trans rights/demands is ignoring the fact that sex does sometimes matter. We need to recognise people's sex while being effectively blind to how they present.

Like OP and a PP, I probably had what would be diagnosed as gender dysphoria as a child.
I didn't identify with feminity, I was convinced that I had actually been born a male and my parents had decided to raise my as a girl. I was convinced I was in the wrong body.

As I grew into an adult I gained a better understanding of myself. I have PCOS, I'm large for a woman, I was always same sex attracted (becoming interested in men as I got older), and I very likely have a ND (suspected ASD & OCD).

If I was the same child, with the same feelings I had then, only being raised now - I feel my outcome would be far different from the life I have now.

I'd probably be affirmed as trans. I might end up on hormones. I might have my breasts removed.

I'd likely never meet my husband or have my children or breastfeed.

In fact, my experience as a child who was able to go through the motions of growing out of "gender dysphoria" has landed me completely on the side of GC feminism.

Enforcement of gender norms is what made me feel the way I felt.
I was bigger than the boys?
Must be a boy.
I liked boys activities?
Boy.
I liked girls?
Boy boy boy.

Removing the gender stereotypes, letting kids be kids and people be people without it meaning that there's something wrong is what we need to do.

A boy in a dress is still a boy. A woman with a moustache is still a woman.

Sex matters.
Gender doesn't.

I'm interested by this, because it implies that you do see there are pertinent differences between women ("birth sex") and transwomen. Can you clarify which spaces would be appropriate for "birth sex" women and which spaces can be used by both?

This is a thread welcoming the productive exchange of differences in opinion.

If you do not wish to participate on those terms, I would ask that you take yourself elsewhere.

Obviously I have no control over what you do/ where you post/ how you behave, but this is a polite request for this thread to be about the productive exchange of differences in opinion, even those opinions we might not share/ like.

I do not believe anyone can be born into the wrong body. It is yours, the only one you have.

I would agree with you on this. I do not believe that trans people are born into the "wrong body". I do not believe that bodies can be "right" or "wrong", they simply are.

OK, thanks.

You can dress how you like, call yourself what you like, think of yourself how you like

but you can’t change sex

if you need medicine for men then all transwomen should get that - they shouldn’t be denied prostrate treatment because women don’t have prostrates

if you are competing in sport transmen should compete with other women to prevent injuries caused by sex based physical differences

sex isn’t gender - one matters to everyone and the other to some and that’s fine but don’t mix them up

So would you agree that the belief they agree born in the wrong body is a result of mental illness and social conditioning of gender norms?

So why then do some trans people want such extreme body modification?

Its existence would be detested. They would destroy it by using it.

I believe this to be true. As a young child I was convinced I was going to grow up to be physically just like my dad, and was devastated when I realised this wouldn’t happen. I felt like a boy, dressed like a boy, had ‘boy’s’ hobbies and interests. From around 5 I wished I’d been born a boy. As I got older I held a genuine belief that something had gone wrong and I should have been born a boy. As a teen and young adult I wanted my breasts removed because they marked me as female. I identified as non-binary for a while, secretly believing I would be more comfortable as a man and thinking this was an easier/less drastic route. I would have been telling people I thought I should have been a boy from the age of 5, and this persisted for so long that, in the current climate, I would have seemed exactly like a 100% certain, definitely no grey area, transman. And people would have affirmed me because we’ve all been told what the alternative is, and what will almost certainly happen if you don’t affirm a gender questioning child.

If we’re going to discuss irrational fears and curated panic, though, I’d like to ask about your views on the “affirmation is suicide prevention” line, along with the “gender-affirming care saves lives” argument. Those options would have been incredibly damaging to me, and to the young people I’ve encouraged to be comfortable with themselves - without taking steps to transition socially or with medical intervention - who are now grateful that they weren’t automatically affirmed. Do you feel this type of rhetoric could harm young people who are confused about gender?

I have experienced all the other threads of this topic as something a lot worse than disrespectful, yes. You can disagree - that is fine.

All I'm asking is that, for those who wish to join this thread, we keep the conversation respectful and productive. I believe that we can all manage that.

FWIW I agree with @Tandora that I don't have an issue with people self-organising spaces that include women + men who identify as women, but exclude men who don't identify as women.

I wouldn't be particularly interested in joining such a group (or visiting that bar, or whatever it is) but I value freedom of association and think individuals should have the right to organise groups of whatever random categories of people one wants.

I think to the extent the government intervenes by mandating segregated spaces (e.g. toilets, prisons...) these should be on the basis of sex.

I wasn't going to post again, but the first sentence above continues to leave me so baffled, I can't help trying one last time.

Tandora, I think you'd class my posts as respectful etc., but you do appear to have not noticed my question below, in which I try to understand how you can argue there's no real conflict of rights. I'd be grateful if you could, in the spirit of mutual respect, now answer it.

The below's a quote from an earlier post. I think you can search my posting history for its other permutations and more context, incl. my own thoughts, quotes from yourself that hypothesise what you may think etc. I also recently (yesterday?) posted at some length to acknowledge the difficulties of Y/N answers, while emphasising their importance, with ways to mitigate these challenges while still having the courage of one's convictions etc., incl. how I'd model doing this myself despite the complexities of this issue.

I use numbers in the following so it's easy to respond to / refute etc. I'm genuinely interested to hear your response.

Do you accept the following premises (while excusing my phrasing if you find it offensive)? My understanding from reading maybe a third of a long thread is that you do.

1. Do transwomen exist with recognisably male physical features? Y/N
2. Do women exist who are so traumatised that they may find even the presence of a close male relative in an enclosed space almost unendurable? Y/N
3. Is the response of the female above to perceiving male features in enclosed spaces (eg. a visiting uncle, a transwoman in a public toilet) bigotry? Y/N
4. Is this female's response therefore a moral failing that she needs to overcome or "reframe"? (Y/N)
5. Must this female, while unable to risk encounters with male physical features in enclosed spaces, restrict her movement accordingly? Y/N

Again (genuine) thanks for replying.

Thanks for sharing your experience so honestly. It is really interesting to hear your perspectives.

I really think you are wrong about this:

If I was the same child, with the same feelings I had then, only being raised now - I feel my outcome would be far different from the life I have now.
I'd probably be affirmed as trans. I might end up on hormones. I might have my breasts removed.
I'd likely never meet my husband or have my children or breastfeed.

I think this is a fear that people have - and I understand why it would seem alarming. But it really isn't the reality of what is happening in society/ clinics etc.

Such a space wouldn't currently be lawful though. What would be the rationale for including trans people of the opposite sex but excluding all other members of the opposite sex?

Are you sure about that? What about Susie Green's son?

Ok. Respectful question. What would a utopian society - in terms of gender and sex - look like to you? And I’m not talking about theorising and big academic words - what would it look like visually, and practically, to be a man or a woman or a child in your perfect world?

Then how do you explain the huge spike in numbers?

Tandora, you do know you are trying to change peoples minds, don't you?

The SC court has made it clear that it doesn’t matter what a man knows himself to be, he is a man and should not use facilities for women.

The only way that can change is if the government change the law. You know we would fight that, so you need to convince people posting and lurking its not worth doing.

You need to have clear, rational ideas to do that. You being a bit bonkers is fun, but its not convincing anyone.

Saying a man knows hes a woman and therefore is a woman, and saying you want to smash the patriarchy problably sounds good in your head, but it doesnt negate the stats on the number of these men who are a danger to women and girls.