A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

I've only skimmed your sources very quickly, but they did seem to me to suggest that the focus here is on pre-teen, pre-pubertal mixing of the sexes for sport, with ample inference that this would be frowned upon or worse in later years - which would fit with other posters' arguments about Khelif. (NB. This isn't something I'm clear or confident on, though I do tend to come down more on the side of posters arguing that Khelif knew fairly early what was happening, and did have some responsibility not to participate - and am in no doubt that by the Olympics fiasco, what they did was anathema).

ETA I honestly can't believe, though, that they'd "spent their whole life mistakenly thinking they were female". This is really tentative and unformed - also a difficult, delicate subject - but I do sometimes wonder if there's a bit of "noble savage" western stereotyping going on in this assumption: the unspoilt African village, so Edenically innocent that sex DSDs aren't fully understood in the way we understand them. I mean, come on - what proportion of girls don't start periods? We've known for millennia that it's a telling issue if someone previously perceived female doesn't. I also wonder - again, very tentatively - if this narrative ties in somehow with (the to my mind absurdly culturally colonialist myth), "the sex binary is an artificial cultural construct imposed by western colonists". Interested what other posters think here, as this all feels very unformed and problematic. Also, it feels rather awkward debating Khelif and their background to this degree, but I kind of feel like when they've embraced the publicity to the degree they have (and with the punching women in the run context), it's legit.

A pity we're running out of space!

I feel the same. I know it doesn’t break the rules and I know it’s on me. I’m going to take a step back from mumsnet for a while as I feel violated.

"Why did you not want us to know?"

Because I am here to read and learn (including by posting things which people may be able to educate me on by showing me where I am wrong) not to answer questions like "Why did you not want us to know?" or to respond to posters who think that men have nothing to say with regards an ideology which affects men (not least gay men, or men who have mothers or sisters or wives or daughters).

It's difficult to discuss why Semanya and Khelif shouldn't be competing as women if you can't call them men. It's why we had years of Semanya being misdescribed as a woman with naturally high testosterone.

The other dynamic is the controversy. If it was because they were male, won't don't other male sports stars get the same opportunities?

Not as a teenager, but certainly as a child.

The third sentence: I played in Algeria, it was really mixed between boys and girls.

I am so sorry about that, Taz, though I can completely understand why. We are all still here for you and each other.

I take pretty regular SM breaks and I think it is good for my health. Can I just warn everyone that if you actually delete your MN account you will lose any Premium Subscription you have paid for, even if you have 11 months left.

I pay for Premium monthly now so that I can delete my account when I want. (I find just logging off isn't enough to take a proper break)

But if you look at the other 'out' male posters you will find that they have not been told that they have nothing to contribute.

You need to think long and hard about @Taztoy 's post. Don't ask us to explain why she feels like that, just see if you can figure it out for yourself. I don't mean that aggressively. I genuinely think that it is a journey that you need to go on

I do actually have some appreciation for a considerate, reasonable non-defensive man's POV on these threads (edit - that sounds like I ONLY appreciate that! Not at all, and it works best if the majority of posts are from women) particularly if they are here to learn, not dominate the discussion and can respectfully challenge if they don't agree - it's how we all learn.

But I do actually think it's worthwhile for male posters to identify themselves - it's how I know various regulars are male and often posting from a perspective as dad to trans-IDing child, or an insight into what they hear in all-male environments irl, which would actually be fairly difficult to tap into!

And perhaps step back a bit if female posters have said they'd prefer to hear from women.
On the flip side I try and bear in mind that whoever posts or doesn't post, anyone of any sex or gender identity can silently read what's posted here.

My partner is male and often asks the same sorts of questions. Other males in my family have heard the women talking about issues that affect them (the reality of domestic abuse etc) and I think it's incredibly useful for them to hear.

If you can find your way without being shown, you’ll know how to get there next time!

I should go back and read all of Jamie's posts to comment, really - maybe if I did I'd change my mind? - but I think it's significant that in all this thread, I've personally not had the impression he's dominating or offensive at all. I also feel his responses to criticisms of this, at least by this point in the thread) have been really graceful (and tellingly different to Tandora's, for example - taking points on board, addressing them meaningfully, all the stuff they avoided doing: it can be done!) Jamie, I just wanted to offer this is respectful (😉) defence of you and recognition of your engagement with these issues. Not enough men begin to understand, let alone get involved, in them.

"Nothing NEEDS my input" please repeat this to yourself. Stop calling women stupid. Stood posting incessantly on this forum without continually identifying yourself as a man and your opinion coming from a man with no lived experience as a woman and hesitate before you next want to call any woman stupid. Now,for the second time, I don't wish to engage with you any further. Although you've shown your male socialisation in refusing to take a point that men shouldn't continually insert themselves into women's spaces and discussions perhaps you won't show it by continuing to argue.

This is really no different to the entitlement of TiMs, you think you get to decide when your sex is relevant.

Boys and girls under 7 (pre-pubescent) are allowed to ‘play’ together in most muslim societies. The point is that Imane was discovered at 14/15 - as the sole ‘female’ in a boys football team. It was not a mixed team as girls are not allowed in Algeria to play in mixed sex teams.

You are being disingenuous now.

Fatima got to play football as she has because she was raised in FRANCE. Her birth nationality is irrelevant.

Like @Catiette I've been completely blindsided by @JamieCannister gate, and now there isn't time to go back and check for undetected male wrongness. I enjoy his posts and hadn't thought about his sex.

Is this a thing? No undeclared males? Is it worth a thread?

To follow my last, having seen how Taz feels, I also wanted to post in support of her. Taz, I've found your posts intensely moving, and your tenacity absolutely astonishing. I'm fortunate in that I can't imagine what you must be going through, and respect your need for time out and hope you can return soon. For far less substantial reasons, I also find a step back from here can help - to the point that I've invested in some internet blockers to keep me away from here when I find that it, and these issues, are risking taking over somewhat. The current situation has been intensely distressing for women, and the sooner our perspective and experience is acknowledged, the better. This thread has demonstrated how far some people are from being able to do this, but also what a warm, strong community has been built to fight for our recognition.

The incongruence is also that Khelif was brought up so conservatively that there was significant limitations on him being a girl, while then as a 15/16 year old teenager playing football with boys.

That is where the arguments start to fall show inconsistency.

Yes. There will have been girls who were playing sport with boys, but would people be saying they were from such a conservative family situation at the same time. I find it much less likely.

I'm surprised some posters are surprised @JamieCannister is male. It's really evident in his posts and he's been asked if he is female before and avoided the question, it's been obvious for a while he's a man and quite hesitant to declare it for some reason.

Agreed, and I'm sad this thread might end on a sour note. I haven't noticed @JamieCannister being any more dismissive to the #bekinders than I have been myself. And yes, the contrast with Tandora's behaviour is very marked.

Am a little confused by the heated discussion over @JamieCannister as I was aware he was male - I think he had declared it elsewhere on MN and so assumed everyone was aware. I’d hate for us to get to a place where we have to declare our sex here as it’s only one step away from being required to declare pronouns, but do appreciate that for some PPs on some issues where they are discussion trauma it is considerate to be more open.

Im stepping away. The fact that a MAN can come into feminism sex and gender and call women stupid and display male socialisation in dominating the conversation and be so dishonest as to not make clear that they are male has totally thrown me. It’s deceptive. And dishonest. And has made me feel sick with the violation.

I know this is a me thing and I made an assumption that a man would let others know that he was one in this space.

anyway. I know. It’s not an airport etc but I am sorry. I can’t understand how it’s ok for a man to call women stupid in here. And not declare he is a man.

I feel I’ve been made a fool of.

Not being interested in the Olympics may be one reason, but to claim to have an interest in women's sex based rights and only be able to name one person due to the controversy surrounding them is something I find a bit sad really.

Don't you have an interest in some of the amazing women who have overcome issues and still go onto to do amazingly well?

I mean Simone Biles? The abuse she and other US female gymnasts suffered at the hands of Nassar was horrendous yet she still managed to come back and win gold. Her achievements were everywhere and gymnastics is one of the big three in the Olympics - it's not like its one of the niche events.

Katie Ledecky - overcame POTS and went on to win 4 golds in 2024 - her fourth olympics - and has to put up with people questioning if she is male - again, one of the big three events.

I think when you're arguing with women, or even just engaging in topics that contain their lived experience it's always necessary to declare you're a male. Women are sharing some traumas on here on the understanding they're on a thread of women in a safe space.

I'm not going to argue with women calling other women stupid, we can speak to eachother in ways men shouldn't ever be allowed to speak to us regardless of if they claim to support women.

I agree with this.

It's not a you thing and you're not wrong to feel violated.