A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

Could you say more about this, I'm interested in your suggestions for how to do this:

I believe that we can organise society in a way that accommodates a diversity of needs based on sex/gender

No, because however much she claims otherwise Tandora knows 100% that TW are men / male. As proven by her answer.

I'm hoping to get an answer to this please.

Can single sex spaces exist alongside mixed sex spaces?
That way everyone has a place where they feel comfortable.
Can the single sex spaces be based on biological sex observed at birth?

Biology is real and tangible. It is therefore possible to make laws etc based on biology.

'Gender identity' seems much more nebulous and open to misuse.

Therefore why should society be arranged based on 'gender identity' rather than sex?

Had it occurred to you that women want single sex spaces and protection from LARPing men as a priority, an an end to the patriarchy as a bonus?

Had it occurred to you that LARPing men are the patriarchy, in it's most misogynistic form?

What I mean practically is that there may be some spaces that we say are for women (understood to refer to "birth sex"). There may be other spaces that we say can be used by either/ both women or trans women.

One of the things I find very difficult in this debate is the insistence by gender critical feminists that if women and trans women are in one space together then it is by definition a "mixed sex" space, that must be available to all (men). I understand the linguistic logic of this perspective, but it is totally dogmatic and binary thinking. It is also unreasonable as it completely fails to recognise that "trans women" (whether you believe they are a "subset of men" or not) still exist as a distinct category of people.

Which is pretty much every thread I've read in the past 48 hours since returning. You have participated in many of them so how is that not diverse?. I love to listen and learn. However I will of course disagree when someone claims that 2+2=5.
You're claiming that this thread is needed because the rest of FWR is what?
For that reason I'm out.
But I do hope you have respectful and productive discussions.

What is the non-binary alternative to the binary of mixed sex or single sex?

Slightly mixed sex?

Women’s oppression isn’t gender-based, it’s sex-based.

And sexual violence is pretty binary given that 98% of it is committed by men and boys, male people, however they identify.

So your starting point for debate falls flat in its face from the get-go.

"Slightly mixed sex?"

I would not use this language, but in your language, yes, this is exactly what I am saying.

I’m a biological woman. I identify as female, i.e. the female gender. Please can you tell me @Tandora how I should conform to my gender?

(As you seem to have missed my question)

What I mean practically is that there may be some spaces that we say are for women (understood to refer to "birth sex"). There may be other spaces that we say can be used by either women or trans women.

As I don't see any commonality that connects me with 'transwomen' but not other men, I don't see any reasoning for this.

What do you think I am missing? What is this commonality you think I should be sharing with trans identified men?

Thank you for the new thread. I did ask this question on the old one.

Does anyone know if there is an internationally recognised official definition for 'Trans' please?

Does such a thing exist. I'm looking for something which either countries or official medical or Psychiatric bodies would use for diagnosis and research.

WHO, CDC, NICE, NIH etc

My guess is that there are 'only' official diagnostic criteria for 'Gender Incongruence' by the WHO and the DSM 'Gender Dysphoria' or 'Transvestic* disorder'?*

It's also legally correct though. Why can't other men enter a women's space if men who consider themselves to be women can? My husband is lovely and I consider him no threat to women. On what basis could you deny him access to women's spaces or services under your suggested approach?

There isn't one

Which is pretty much every thread I've read in the past 48 hours since returning

You may have experienced the other threads as diverse, respectful and productive. That is not my experience.

WHICH spaces? Give me some examples? Because I can't think of a single formal single sex space it's appropriate eto have a man in, even if he thinks he's a woman.

I can accept that there might be spaces that can be advertised as such and that women or transwomen could CHOOSE to use them. But that should be a choice, clearly articulated. And it's okay if bioloical women choose not to use those. eg, I probalby wouldn't join a pottery class that was advertised for women only that also accepted transwomen. But I can see many women being completely fine with that and enjoying that social interaction with someone who presents as female. Great, each to their own.

Thanks for clarifying. I profoundly disagree with you but wish you well with making your case.

I can't usually discuss any trans issues because I'm at neither end of the scale, I'm somewhere in the middle.
People with dicks are men. Men who've had surgery are trans women. People with vaginas are women, etc. In my opinion.
My main concern is the 1st category of men who, like so many men of whatever persuasion, are out to shit all over women in various ways.
I think people born in the wrong bodies are a tiny minority. I wanted to be a boy as a kid but as an adult I see I just wanted to be treated as an equal and be allowed to dress how I wanted and be a lesbian. I didn't really want a sex change.
Good luck with the thread @Tandora

NO

So both you and they are upholding those conventional social understandings of sex/gender then?

Why?

Tandora, if you could tell us what you think we share with 'transwomen' but not other men, that would be helpful.

One of the things I find very difficult in this debate is the insistence by gender critical feminists that if women and trans women are in one space together then it is by definition a "mixed sex" space, that must be available to all (men).
I understand the linguistic logic of this perspective, but it is totally dogmatic and binary thinking.
It is the law - a man who claims to be a woman is a man in law and in reality. People cannot change sex. It's also the reality of the perception of others. We can almost always tell whether a person is a man or a woman. If one male person is permitted to be in the space, it becomes mixed sex. Obviously. A single sex space for women only has women in it.

It is also unreasonable as it completely fails to recognise that "trans women" (whether you believe they are a "subset of men" or not) still exist as a distinct category of people.
They are not a distinct category of people because their "transness" arises as the result of a declaration. A man who claims to be a woman is a MCW by virtue of that claim. Therefore MCWs could be as numerous as the entire population of men and boys in the world. Also, some men who claim to be women have desisted. Children have also desisted in late adolescence. MCWs are not a stable category, nor, in the absence of any proof to the contrary, is there anything that marks them out as different to other men except their declaration.

Thanks for creating the thread.

I think some of the most interesting conversation can be on the difficult questions that don't have easy answers and may inspire deeper thought and doubts.

A couple come to mind regarding edge cases:

• Should people with CAIS be considered women? Why/why not? What are the crucial differences between them and the few males who manage to pass as women in their everyday lives? Should this affect policy?

• There exist a small set of women who call themselves men and have modified their bodies so they pass as men in everyday life. In pragmatic terms, is it an issue if they use female single-sex spaces? If so, how should policy be crafted to address this?

I personally have conflicting thoughts on these questions, mostly because, in my mind at least, there's a dissonance between theoretical principles and real-world impacts. Interested to hear others' thoughts.

So some single sex spaces, and some for women and the most sexist of men, who are considerably more likely than the average man to commit sex crimes (looking at the prison population)?

No thank you.