A space for respectful dialogue about sex, gender and diversity

[Tandora]

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

It is not a space for bullying and insults. Please do not join if your intention is to control the conversation and undermine those who disagree with you.

@eatfigs @VoulezVous @plastictrees Sorry for being presumptuous in tagging you (and feel free to ignore), but if you are interested I'd love to chat to all more here.

If by any miracle there are any trans people on this board on mumsnet - I can't imagine there would be - would also love to see you here.

Can I ask a question?

Do you agree that if a trans'woman' wears high heels, a dress, long hair, make up etc then what we are seeing is a performance of gender conformity?

If a trans'woman' wears high heels, a dress, long hair, make up etc and is perceived as gender non-conforming that can only be because their male sex is recognized.

Do you condemn the violence shown by trans activists in smashing the windows and vandalising the venue for a women’s conference in Brighton?

I would consider all trans people to be gender nonconforming because their bodies/identities do not fit conventional social understandings of sex/ gender.

NO

No.

This is a thread for posters who want to talk and share a diverse range of opinions about sex, gender, being gender non-conforming and/or trans, and public policy. It is to learn from each other; to engage in a productive exchange, and to hear different sides of the story.

Please do not join if your intention is to control/ shut down the conversation.

I think we'd need to agree definitions of 1. Sex 2. Gender 3. Diversity as a starting point

Definitely. This is a place to discuss that.

Do you agree there is a conflict between existing women's rights (to single sex spaces, single sex sports etc) and trans activists wants (for transwomen to be allowed in these women's spaces)?

How do you suggest to resolve this?

But then what is gender conforming? Is a woman wearing trousers ngc? Is a woman builder ngc? Does this mean they are trans?

go on then

Being gender non conforming is not the same as being trans. I would consider all trans people to be gnc, but not all gnc people are trans.

But transwomen have a feminine gender identity in your view no?

so if a transwoman dresses according to feminine stereotypes they are being gender conforming surely?

So how do we know if someone is trans or gnc? Wouldn’t the best thing to do be to do away with all gender stereotypes and let people wear and present how they like. So men can rock dresses and makeup and not be afraid of being laughed at and women don’t have to conform to the “feminine” stereotypes.

Who gets to define what is gender conforming or non conforming?
Given that gender norms change over time and culture....?

Why can't trans people expand the definition of their own 'gender' rather than claiming the 'gender' of the opposite sex?

NO!

Good out. That’s why I love IK and his makeup campaign. It shows even in a conservative country like Algeria, men can wear make up and look great. I love the was he’s normalising male make up.

No I don't think there is an essential conflict between the rights of women and girls and trans people. I believe that dismantling all forms of gender based control/ oppression/ hierarchy/ violence is necessary to dismantle patriarchy.

I believe that we can organise society in a way that accommodates a diversity of needs based on sex/gender.

I don't think it is fair to post No to debate this on a thread especially set up for this. OK if it is derailing, but if you don't wan to debate then just ignore.

Transwomen being men isn’t an opinion. It’s the truth. Nothing to debate.

So you are advocating all spaces to be mixed sex? Aren’t males with a trans identity afraid of sharing spaces with other males? How will mixed sex spaces be safer? They’d still be sharing spaces with males.

And what do you think that organisation looks like in the real world rather than theoretically?