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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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49
TheJoyOfWriting · 15/09/2025 06:38

ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 06:35

The suffragettes were way more violent than the trans lobby

Sorry but that is absolute bullshit. Get back to us when you find evidence of the suffragettes bringing wire-covered baseball bats to rallies, when you find evidence of the suffragettes fracturing a 72 year old man's eye socket, saying all men should be raped, saying bash a man if you see one, and get back to me when you find evidence of the suffragettes saying these things to men and that this is what men should go through (only 5 out of a folder of around 700 violent threats death, assault and rape threats), so almost impossible to pick just 5):

I know it's not pleasant to read about but the suffragettes were pretty violent, some at least. A lot of bombs were set, also arson.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

Suffragette bombing and arson campaign - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 06:48

VoulezVouz · 15/09/2025 02:09

Wow. I haven’t seen any “damning” evidence that the shooter is trans ( and that’s strange terminology to use, anyway, isn’t it - it is not a crime to be trans, have a trans partner, or even - !!! - be leftist). I’ve only seen anecdotal news stories and a statement from the Utah Governor looking very nervous. Where’s your damning evidence? I do hope you’re not talking about KF. That’s not evidence.

You haven't been following the conversation. No one, NOT....ONE person has accused the shooter of being trans. A trans activist, yes, but not trans themselves.

ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 06:50

ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 06:35

The suffragettes were way more violent than the trans lobby

Sorry but that is absolute bullshit. Get back to us when you find evidence of the suffragettes bringing wire-covered baseball bats to rallies, when you find evidence of the suffragettes fracturing a 72 year old man's eye socket, saying all men should be raped, saying bash a man if you see one, and get back to me when you find evidence of the suffragettes saying these things to men and that this is what men should go through (only 5 out of a folder of around 700 violent threats death, assault and rape threats), so almost impossible to pick just 5):

NM

Cinaferna · 15/09/2025 07:01

Anactor · 14/09/2025 08:01

For roommate read flatmate.

This is just speculation being reported as fact.

Oh, and the guns thing. His family were hunters, which is sadly why he was such an expert shot. It wasn’t being ‘white Republicans’ - it was that they innocently taught their child exactly how to shoot a live target at a distance.

Is that ironic use of the word 'innocently'?

Cinaferna · 15/09/2025 07:16

InWalksBarberalla · 15/09/2025 00:19

Why is it nonsense? The shooter was in a relationship with a trans person and shot and killed Charlie Kirk as he was facing questions about trans violence. Why shouldn't the link be explored.

There may be a notional link but every shooter has a notional link to something: right wing, left wing, gender politics, obsession with a movie star. We can't extrapolate from this that the cause they ally themselves with is therefore the root of their violence.

I think we need to separate the violence from the nominal justification for it and explore it as a cause in itself: people have the means and opportunity in US to kill. The desire to kill is a motive in itself. Why?

Shortshriftandlethal · 15/09/2025 08:07

TheJoyOfWriting · 14/09/2025 22:59

I think we should acknowledge that some trans people may want these for genuine self-defence (not preemptive reaction to non-existent 'genocide'). While the scale of trans hate crimes is vastly exaggerated, they do exist and are more likely to be vulnerable for other reasons: poverty (we know here many kids in care have been made to think they are trans), mental health issues, sexual abuse history, abusive parents...

This murder in particular is one that made me think about this again. (TW : terrible violence)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Sam_Nordquist&ved=2ahUKEwi8uY2cn9mPAxWn0QIHHaaKAbUQFnoECCEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0iMca7579hLqJYg37Afq2J

A poster I saw on another thread said her sister had bipolar disorder but had used a gun to protect herself from a violent ex & she thus opposed mentally ill people being forbidden from guns.

I don't know what I think.. surely most dangerous trans people have other comorbid mental health conditions aside from being trans?

Ir's difficult as in my gut I feel bipolar & other similar illnesses are grounds to not be allowed a gun. But at the same time I worry people w these are more likely to be targeted.

I would also be a bit careful of automatically agreeing that people w mental issues should be forbidden guns due to he history this has had to silence people.. We know the history of women being confined to lunatic asylums or diagnosed as hysterical often on spurious grounds/to cover up abuse.

Likewise we know that until 1970s homosexuality was considered a mental disorder by the DSM, and according to one measurement still was until the 1990s (I think the WHO, but need to check). Many US conservative Christians, as well as mainstream right wingers like Ben Shapiro & arguably Charlie Kirk (well he did compare having gay relationships to alcohol/drug addiction) still argue that it is. What if they in the future potential were able tp decide to stop gay people having guns as they're all by default mentally ill? This is ovvs v hypothetical, but I don't think we should ignore these questions as impossible.

Moreover, we know there is a huge issue of overdiagnosis now, arguably driven by Big Pharma. Could this also play a role in a potential future government diagnosing protestors as 'mentally ill' and disarming them?

This is the reason, I've read, that the NRA is wary of mental health restrictions, and while on one level I disagree strongly, on another I see what they are worried about.

I don't want to force team and say these issues are the same as trans, bc they're not. But I do think there are other aspects to be considered before we agree that all mentally ill people should be forbidden guns.

And I do think there are quite a few trans people who want them for actual defence (not attack) reasons, and have genuine reasons to worry. If they must be disarmed (which they probs do) can thry be protected some other way.

Trans identified people, especially the men, may need a gun for self defence in cases of 'misgendering'? Many do not like for their sex to be correctly identified. It makes them very angry.

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 08:31

ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 06:35

The suffragettes were way more violent than the trans lobby

Sorry but that is absolute bullshit. Get back to us when you find evidence of the suffragettes bringing wire-covered baseball bats to rallies, when you find evidence of the suffragettes fracturing a 72 year old man's eye socket, saying all men should be raped, saying bash a man if you see one, and get back to me when you find evidence of the suffragettes saying these things to men and that this is what men should go through (only 5 out of a folder of around 700 violent threats death, assault and rape threats), so almost impossible to pick just 5):

The campaign, led by key WSPU figures such as Emmeline Pankhurst, targeted infrastructure, government, churches and the general public, and saw the use of improvised explosive devices, arson, letter bombs, assassination attempts and other forms of direct action and violence. At least four people were killed in the attacks, and at least 24 were injured.

Both suffragettes and the authorities of the time described the arson and bomb attacks as a terrorist campaign.
The WSPU was not the only militant suffragette group. The Women's Freedom League attacked ballot boxes at the 1909 Bermondsey by-election with acid, blinding the returning officer in one eye and causing severe burns to the Liberal agent's neck.

On 8 December, Davison attempted to set fire to the busy post office in Fleet Street with a burning, kerosene-soaked cloth enclosed within an envelope, but the intended fire did not take hold. Six days later, Davison set fire to two pillar boxes in the City of London, before again attempting to set fire to a post office in Parliament Street, but was arrested during the act and imprisoned.

After 1911, suffragette violence was directed increasingly at commercial concerns and then at the general public. This violence was encouraged by the leadership of the WSPU. In particular, the daughter of WSPU leader Emmeline Pankhurst, Christabel Pankhurst, actively planned a self-described "reign of terror". Emmeline Pankhurst stated that the aim of the campaign was "to make England and every department of English life insecure and unsafe".

In June and July 1912, five serious incidents signified the beginning of the campaign in earnest: the homes of three anti-suffrage cabinet ministers were attacked, a powerful bomb was planted in the Home Secretary's office and the Theatre Royal, Dublin, was set aflame and bombed while an audience attended a performance. One of the most dangerous attacks committed by the suffragettes, the attack on the Theatre Royal was carried out by Mary Leigh, Gladys Evans, Lizzie Baker and Mabel Capper, who attempted to set fire to the building during a packed lunchtime matinee attended by prime minister H. H. Asquith. A canister of gunpowder was left close to the stage and petrol and lit matches were thrown into the projection booth, which contained highly combustible film reels. Earlier that day, Leigh hurled a hatchet towards Asquith, which narrowly missed, instead cutting Irish MP John Redmond on the ear.

The suffragettes invented the letter bomb, a device intended to kill or injure the recipient, and an increasing number began to be posted. On 29 January, several letter bombs were sent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, David Lloyd George, and the prime minister Asquith, but they all exploded in post offices, post boxes or mailbags while in transit. In the following weeks, further attacks on letters and mailboxes occurred in cities such as Coventry, London, Edinburgh, Northampton, and York, and in Aberdeen, thick black ink was used to obliterate addresses in postal boxes.

On 6 February five postmen were burned, four severely, in Dundee after handling a phosphorus suffragette letter bomb addressed to Asquith. On 19 February, there was a suffragette bomb attack on Lloyd George's house, Pinfold Manor, with two bombs planted perhaps by Emily Davison. Only one exploded, seriously damaging the building but causing no injuries. The explosion occurred shortly before the arrival of workmen at the house, and the crude nature of the timer – a candle – meant the bomb had been likely to explode while the men were present. WSPU Leader Emmeline Pankhurst was arrested for planning the attack on Lloyd George's house and sentenced to three years in prison. Between February and March, railway signal wires across the country were deliberately cut, further endangering train journeys.

In May 1913, the Ashley Road Public School in Aberdeen had its roof destroyed by fire, with arson materials. Amongst the other targets selected by suffragettes were sporting events: there was a failed attempt to burn down the grounds of the All England Lawn Tennis Club at Wimbledon, while a plot to burn down the grandstand of Crystal Palace F.C.'s football ground on the eve of the 1913 FA Cup Final was also foiled.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

Suffragette bombing and arson campaign - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

aintgonnarain · 15/09/2025 08:48

TheJoyOfWriting · 15/09/2025 06:38

I know it's not pleasant to read about but the suffragettes were pretty violent, some at least. A lot of bombs were set, also arson.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

Yes, but hurty words from anonymous 0 follower accounts on twitter

CassOle · 15/09/2025 08:53

There is a lot more to come out regarding this case. We need to wait and see what developments occur.

Utah Gov. Spencer Cox shares new details about Charlie Kirk shooting suspect: Full interview.

https://x.com/TonySeruga/status/1967206490055573881

'I have been told this morning by an FBI analyst reviewing the reams of GPS data, there very well may be dozens of co-conspirators.'

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 08:58

It's quite clear that the suffragettes had zero reservations about using VAWG to accomplish their goals. Had their attempt to start a fire at the Theatre Royal been successful then no doubt numerous innocent women and children would've burned to death. Same with the bombs that thankfully didn't detonate.

There's no way it can be explained away as 'scare tactics' or argued that the bombs were never supposed to detonate, because in the theatre attack the gunpowder was in place and the suffragettes were throwing matches

I can't speak to their ethics but I've definitely seen it suggested before now that their interest in getting the vote and property rights was self serving and that they didn't particularly care about the rights of their maidservants.

Certainly many of the early suffragettes were rich women already enjoying vastly more privilege than most of the population, including most men. It's entirely possible that they just wanted the elite status of their husbands rather than to help women in general.

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 09:07

All those people saying "trans people are harmless, this is just about self-ID, suffragettes were more violent" etc - how closely have you been following changes in the actual trans community (vs keeping up with legal developments re: self-ID in the UK etc?)

That compendium from @ThatBlackCat is exactly right and that's what they say in public.

The Zizian cult mentioned above was mostly trans women, not just the leader - iirc also one female NB - and was a splinter group from some other group specifically set up because of perceived transphobia. They murdered 6 people.

There are growing communities on Reddit, streaming platforms, discord etc which are explicitly about helping trans people to arm themselves against the "genocide". Just doing a random search for trans guns - I'm sure somewhere on the farms there is a 1000-page compendium - I read one post about a trans woman interviewed for a magazine about buying his first handgun, and in the MONTH or so between the interview and the article coming out his collection had "grown a lot".

“‘They’re going to fear us no matter what,’ she said. ‘So let the fear come from a place of reality.’

Another one compared it to freeing themselves from chattel slavery (?!):

"The crimes of this guilty land can never be purged away but with blood."

All these subreddits link to private discords where they presumably go a little further about their plans. This is what they are happy to say in public.

I'm not saying every trans identifying person is a murderer, obviously; I'm saying that TRA / trantifa groups are explicitly the radicalisation pathway and it's not just that "some murderers happen to be trans".

Charlie Kirk assassin was living with trans roommate
Charlie Kirk assassin was living with trans roommate
ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 09:11

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 08:31

The campaign, led by key WSPU figures such as Emmeline Pankhurst, targeted infrastructure, government, churches and the general public, and saw the use of improvised explosive devices, arson, letter bombs, assassination attempts and other forms of direct action and violence. At least four people were killed in the attacks, and at least 24 were injured.

Both suffragettes and the authorities of the time described the arson and bomb attacks as a terrorist campaign.
The WSPU was not the only militant suffragette group. The Women's Freedom League attacked ballot boxes at the 1909 Bermondsey by-election with acid, blinding the returning officer in one eye and causing severe burns to the Liberal agent's neck.

On 8 December, Davison attempted to set fire to the busy post office in Fleet Street with a burning, kerosene-soaked cloth enclosed within an envelope, but the intended fire did not take hold. Six days later, Davison set fire to two pillar boxes in the City of London, before again attempting to set fire to a post office in Parliament Street, but was arrested during the act and imprisoned.

After 1911, suffragette violence was directed increasingly at commercial concerns and then at the general public. This violence was encouraged by the leadership of the WSPU. In particular, the daughter of WSPU leader Emmeline Pankhurst, Christabel Pankhurst, actively planned a self-described "reign of terror". Emmeline Pankhurst stated that the aim of the campaign was "to make England and every department of English life insecure and unsafe".

In June and July 1912, five serious incidents signified the beginning of the campaign in earnest: the homes of three anti-suffrage cabinet ministers were attacked, a powerful bomb was planted in the Home Secretary's office and the Theatre Royal, Dublin, was set aflame and bombed while an audience attended a performance. One of the most dangerous attacks committed by the suffragettes, the attack on the Theatre Royal was carried out by Mary Leigh, Gladys Evans, Lizzie Baker and Mabel Capper, who attempted to set fire to the building during a packed lunchtime matinee attended by prime minister H. H. Asquith. A canister of gunpowder was left close to the stage and petrol and lit matches were thrown into the projection booth, which contained highly combustible film reels. Earlier that day, Leigh hurled a hatchet towards Asquith, which narrowly missed, instead cutting Irish MP John Redmond on the ear.

The suffragettes invented the letter bomb, a device intended to kill or injure the recipient, and an increasing number began to be posted. On 29 January, several letter bombs were sent to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, David Lloyd George, and the prime minister Asquith, but they all exploded in post offices, post boxes or mailbags while in transit. In the following weeks, further attacks on letters and mailboxes occurred in cities such as Coventry, London, Edinburgh, Northampton, and York, and in Aberdeen, thick black ink was used to obliterate addresses in postal boxes.

On 6 February five postmen were burned, four severely, in Dundee after handling a phosphorus suffragette letter bomb addressed to Asquith. On 19 February, there was a suffragette bomb attack on Lloyd George's house, Pinfold Manor, with two bombs planted perhaps by Emily Davison. Only one exploded, seriously damaging the building but causing no injuries. The explosion occurred shortly before the arrival of workmen at the house, and the crude nature of the timer – a candle – meant the bomb had been likely to explode while the men were present. WSPU Leader Emmeline Pankhurst was arrested for planning the attack on Lloyd George's house and sentenced to three years in prison. Between February and March, railway signal wires across the country were deliberately cut, further endangering train journeys.

In May 1913, the Ashley Road Public School in Aberdeen had its roof destroyed by fire, with arson materials. Amongst the other targets selected by suffragettes were sporting events: there was a failed attempt to burn down the grounds of the All England Lawn Tennis Club at Wimbledon, while a plot to burn down the grandstand of Crystal Palace F.C.'s football ground on the eve of the 1913 FA Cup Final was also foiled.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffragette_bombing_and_arson_campaign

Um, I know all that (although I don't consider wikipedia more valid a source than fox news). As I said, get back to me when these suffragettes; wished to rape men until their insides ruptured, skinned them alive, burn them in a grease fire, sever their spines, etc etc. Until then your whataboutery is completely and utterly way beyond irrelevant.

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 09:14

Suffragettes being violent in support of their cause is surely evidence that we should be wary of another marginalised group using violence in support of their cause? It's not exactly uncommon.

It makes sense to be clear eyed about patterns of increasing radicalisation. If I go out to debate, say, 20mph zones, I don't worry about maybe being stabbed even though I'm just "discussing the balance of rights between pedestrians and motorists" because there isn't a demonstrated history of violence among the 20mph activist community.

TheUnusuallyQuerulentMxLauraBrown · 15/09/2025 09:22

Yep. Plus children (as young as 12) are now being arrested for plotting terrorist and mass casualty acts after being groomed online into believing this will give their lives meaning and purpose.
Lots of people assume online grooming is either paedos, far right, or Islamist but the current crop seems nihilist, getting a thrill from watching the world burn as salve to their perceived wounds/victim status.

The imagery and ideology is all over the place so on the surface it might look Nazi-ish but I suspect that’s more to do with the taboo of Nazism and Racism being fetishised (actual Neo Nazis like Richard Spence are wearing nice suits, not T shirts that refer to the Columbine School Shootings).
In these dark corners of the internet previous mass killers are called saints and teenagers are promised that they will achieve sainthood through sacrifice. Children who are vulnerable are specifically targeted, so those who are isolated via chaotic family life or poor mental health are especially at risk. Unsurprisingly this group include many children who self ID as trans.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 09:25

VoulezVouz · 15/09/2025 03:19

I’m specifically referring the claims of ‘trans’ - not the shooting itself. You may want to read my post again.

Given the Utah Governor is Republican, and so is quite partisan, any claims he makes at this point should be taken carefully. I would say the same if it were a Democrat Governor suggesting the opposite.

Most news outlets reporting the trans angle are right-wing.

Yes, because you read my post wrong as @TalkingintheDark said. You “may want to read it again”. Stop projecting stuff onto me. You’ve done it on multiple threads now.

Howseitgoin · 15/09/2025 09:25

OneAmberFinch · 15/09/2025 09:07

All those people saying "trans people are harmless, this is just about self-ID, suffragettes were more violent" etc - how closely have you been following changes in the actual trans community (vs keeping up with legal developments re: self-ID in the UK etc?)

That compendium from @ThatBlackCat is exactly right and that's what they say in public.

The Zizian cult mentioned above was mostly trans women, not just the leader - iirc also one female NB - and was a splinter group from some other group specifically set up because of perceived transphobia. They murdered 6 people.

There are growing communities on Reddit, streaming platforms, discord etc which are explicitly about helping trans people to arm themselves against the "genocide". Just doing a random search for trans guns - I'm sure somewhere on the farms there is a 1000-page compendium - I read one post about a trans woman interviewed for a magazine about buying his first handgun, and in the MONTH or so between the interview and the article coming out his collection had "grown a lot".

“‘They’re going to fear us no matter what,’ she said. ‘So let the fear come from a place of reality.’

Another one compared it to freeing themselves from chattel slavery (?!):

"The crimes of this guilty land can never be purged away but with blood."

All these subreddits link to private discords where they presumably go a little further about their plans. This is what they are happy to say in public.

I'm not saying every trans identifying person is a murderer, obviously; I'm saying that TRA / trantifa groups are explicitly the radicalisation pathway and it's not just that "some murderers happen to be trans".

A statistically insignificant group with statistically insignificant threats is hardly the same thing.

On line culture is packed to the brim with blustery threats that don't materialise into mass shootings because certain conditions need to be met as in severe mental health problems & gun access. That is to say not every 'radicalised' individual becomes a shooter. If they did the streets would be full of them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 09:30

VoulezVouz · 15/09/2025 02:32

You were replying to this post:

Because it’s sooooo convenient to their anti trans agenda. And it’s a such a massive leap that even Sam Beckett is giving it side eye.
it hasnt been proven in a court of law that he did it or what his motives are. Yet trial by media out in full force.
i have been vocal on this site about my reticence to embrace trans rights when they are overriding women rights, and the needs of vulnerable women, but even I think this kind of narrative weaving is beyond ridiculous. Trans people are just people, not an enemy other to dehumanise and find reasons to hate.
but at least were all distracted from Trumps stroke though eh?

So no, not about the other guy. Why can’t you be honest for once? You’re also over the threads saying no-one should speculate, but here you saying the evidence is damning and the “partner” is trans - where really, no such evidence (of trans) exists. Maybe take a break.

“It hasn’t been proven in court that he did it” was what I was referring to. What do you think, “damning” was referring to and “innocent until proven guilty”. FWIW though, I think your selective acceptance of the information in the case that suits your own agenda is quite revealing.

anyolddinosaur · 15/09/2025 09:31

At the moment most of the "discussion" is speculation with little basis in fact. It's known that he had republican parents and a trans room-mate and that the bullets had writing on them. Everything else - the talk of becoming more left wing, the room-mate being his lover - is speculation.

This seems like a deliberate distraction from the harassment of sex realist people by a disgraced former policeman who seems able to get police forces to be make clowns of themselves.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 09:33

Apparently the trans boyfriend is cooperating fully and was shocked by the shooting. So it’s quite possible that is not the motivation and I haven’t once claimed it is.

NotMyNigelFarage · 15/09/2025 09:34

ThatBlackCat · 15/09/2025 09:11

Um, I know all that (although I don't consider wikipedia more valid a source than fox news). As I said, get back to me when these suffragettes; wished to rape men until their insides ruptured, skinned them alive, burn them in a grease fire, sever their spines, etc etc. Until then your whataboutery is completely and utterly way beyond irrelevant.

Lol, those are the widely accepted historical facts. Besides, how would you already know about them if they were false?

All this shit about grease fires is just twitter nonsense. It's pretty grim but it's not quite on the level of planting gunpowder in theatres packed full of innocent civilians.

If you already knew this, as you claim, then it's even more embarrassing that you'd think the actions of the trans lobby were comparable. Blush

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 09:36

anyolddinosaur · 15/09/2025 09:31

At the moment most of the "discussion" is speculation with little basis in fact. It's known that he had republican parents and a trans room-mate and that the bullets had writing on them. Everything else - the talk of becoming more left wing, the room-mate being his lover - is speculation.

This seems like a deliberate distraction from the harassment of sex realist people by a disgraced former policeman who seems able to get police forces to be make clowns of themselves.

The governor of Utah was clear that the roommate and the suspect are in a romantic relationship.

LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms · 15/09/2025 09:37

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 09:33

Apparently the trans boyfriend is cooperating fully and was shocked by the shooting. So it’s quite possible that is not the motivation and I haven’t once claimed it is.

Of course he says he was shocked. What on earth else would anyone expect him to say? This means nothing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/09/2025 09:41

Yes, I’m just saying that it’s possible he wasn’t involved before the event. He seems to have been afterwards though as the call and discord logs have been mentioned, and it wasn’t him who turned in Robinson.

Howseitgoin · 15/09/2025 09:41

Irrelevant. Whom you are sexually attracted to or in a relationship with isn't necessarily a reflection of your politics/personal gripes.

lawsuit.org/general-law/republicans-have-an-obsession-with-transgender-pornography/