Charlie Kirk shot during a debate about trans people

[feministmom4ever]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-15086277/Charlie-Kirks-final-words-assassinated-Utah-dead.html

I didn’t agree with many of his political views, but I liked how he interacted with college students who couldn’t answer the question “what is a woman?”.

You are simplifying the reason for Trump's re-election to the point of absurdity.

Backlash against liberal politics and Biden's disastrous term in office are just a couple of the many reasons Trump was elected.

However, the purchase of Twitter by Elon Musk to advance his political agenda, and algorithms on Facebook and Instagram allowing Russian influence in the election - reveal that the reasons for the rise in Trump support are far more insidious and complex than you suggest.

Charlie Kirk is only one piece of that picture, but his role in popularising right-wing extremism in America is far from insignificant.

I come from a debating background. I could probably credibly argue the for and against opinions for all of the heinous things CK has said. It is the ability to understand where our opponents are coming from and then put forward meaningful arguments against them that meant we made progress on all the rights we have now - voting rights, civil rights, women's rights.

This was a man who liked to say "Prove me wrong". I'm sure many of the posters on this board could have done so. Clearly the man who decided to execute him lacked the ability.

It should not be seen as admirable in any way, its a sign of weakness.

I think if he meant specific women why didn’t he just say that - why the need to point out that they’re black and accuse them of ‘taking white womens’ slots’ ?

To me this just reads as if you are starting your timeline halfway through - yes, young American men have been receptive to reactionary ideas but for something to be reactionary there has to first be an action.

Which as Eresh points out, seems to have been the left going completely batshit/losing touch with material reality.

Rogan had Trump on his podcast in the lead up to the 2024 election - Kamala Harris was also offered an episode and declined to participate - do you think she was wrong to decline? I do…

.. but then three hours of chat with very few edits isn’t going to be easy to sustain if you aren’t a consistent and convincing candidate.

Biden should’ve stepped down way earlier giving time for a proper candidate contest and the Dems should’ve codified the right to an abortion via (whatever the US equivalent is to) parliamentary law (I forget and CBA to Ask Jeeves) during their peak influential years but it’s coulda woulda shoulda now, huh?

Ratcheting up the divisive rhetoric is unlikely to make things better and there is surely nothing more divisive than celebrating a man being murdered because he had unpalatable political opinions?

As an aside, I wonder why CK’s Turning Point stuff (reportedly) made so little impact on young people in the U.K.?
The US left has had outsize impact comparably (although it has definitely waned since lockdowns ended).

Sure, it’s all the fault of the bots. Nothing to do with the democrats making themselves unelectable.

Imo it is bigoted to say that being actively gay is like being a drug addict or alcoholic.

And that the Leviticus mandate to stone men to death for gay sex is 'God's perfect law for sexual matters'.

Not very pleasant either to say that women over 30 are past their prime, and women on the Pill are automatically 'crazy and bitter', though I wouldn't say that rises to the level of bigoted.

I agree that the purchase of Twitter by Musk
made a massive impact on politics on both sides of the Atlantic but not for the same reasons you give. Cambridge Analytica et al were already influencing public opinion via social media manipulation way before that deal was signed.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Analytica

It’s interesting how the other big SM companies changed many of their policies in the wake of Elon’s buy out.

If a person believes that life starts and is precious in God's eyes from conception, it would be highly hypocritical to argue that the way in which that foetus was conceived made a difference to their attitude to abortion. The focus would be on the child, not the mother.

It's not a view I agree with, but I would rather be able to debate that civilly than have people being shot for saying it.

(I realise that you too are not advocating for violence, this is not a criticism of your post).

We have to be able to discuss issues without resorting to violence.

Exactly. He said “you had to steal a white person’s slot” while addressing multiple black women.

He addressed them as a group and cited their race as the reason they got their jobs, and commented negatively about their “brain processing power”.

That is racist. It’s white supremacy.

There was nothing “baseless” about it. It was and is my opinion that you and certain others are lacking in humanity. There’s no need to gloat about a man’s violent death. It doesn’t matter what sort of person he was, it still reflects on you that you rush in to downplay his murder. If you can’t stop yourself doing that or calling people who criticise you “hysterics”, then yes, you are self indulgently gloating about one of “them” (those bad people I don’t agree with unlike all the good people who agree with me) being killed, and no, you don’t have the moral high ground, whatever you think. That you can’t see this, is not my issue. Anyway, I really am going to leave it there.

Brutal murder is NEVER admirable.

I have to say I found the reaction to the United Healthcare CEO more disturbing as Luigi Mangione was being lionised for his good looks and

Some were arguing it was justified bc the CEO had indirectly killed many by denying them health insurance.

Whether or not that's true, vigilante justice is NEVER acceptable.

Someone should do more writing on the way this ties in weirdly w the US vigilante frontier mentality & the way violent criminals like Billy the Kid, Bonnie & Clyde etc attained similar folk hero image.

I've noticed on SM there is a trend for rural red US towns to have towns with cars that have stickers saying 'kill your local pedophile' and "shoot your local heroin dealer'. I hope it's a joke...I know the US police can be awful, but vigilantism is not a solution.

Joe Rogan, who you also mentioned 🙄

Seems like I missed pages and pages of people justifying his murder because of his held views.

I don't care whether anyone has A views or B views. They should not be murdered for them.

I agree - I think it's also absurdly easy to argue against all these positions.

The fact is though, that the "no debate" movement has meant that a lot of modern students cannot engage with any of the opinions they call bigoted. It means their arguments against are as shallow as just dismissing people like CK as bigots and not worthy of engagement.

It means there's no depth of engagement, no true understanding of WHY they hold certain opinions, other than they've been told its the right thing to do, and it makes it easy to make them look like idiots in an open debate format.

The ease with which you baselessly accuse people of "lacking humanity" tells me that you're not somebody who takes the concept of "humanity" seriously, or even understands what the term means.

I haven't gloated in the least about the man's death. It reflects on you that you so readily lie about something that can easily be checked by anyone following my posts.

I've described Kirk's murder as "a minor tragedy in the scheme of things", compared with all the slayings of innocents that go on in the US every day. That's not an example of "gloating" it's an example of realistic and rational ethical judgment.

His wife and kids were not at the event. Hopefully they have not seen the video.

So not sure what you mean by 'before their eyes'.

Yes, exactly. Debate him and win. It’s far more constructive than starting a violent tit for tat war which no one is likely to win. And if you can’t actually win that debate in good faith, regardless of how terrible a person your opponent is, it’s probably time to have a think about why that is and whether there are some things you’re missing.

No one is gloating, can you quote who has gloated?

This is going to lead to more violence and hate crime, no one wants that.

I agree mostly...just that a lot of religious Republicans do support rape exemptions. Their thinking may differ from Kirk's though, I appreciate that his views were formed from particular premises.

I must say I struggle to understand the religious furore over abortion in the US when there is no clear statement in the Christian Bible banning abortion & the Jewish Talmud supports it up to a certain points in pregnancy. I realise they are lines like 'Before I formed you in the womb I knew you' and similar but the certainty a lot of US Christians seem to have seems out of proportion to what the Bible actually says.

They literally were…

Sorry, I read that they were there. Thank goodness, though that's a small mercy in proportion to this loss....

It’s completely a matter of opinion whether people are mocking or gloating about his death, you’re certainly not particularly respectful about it, are you? I’m not “lying”, we see things differently.

Who?

at least he wont be up for pres next time

Great post. We need more talking and thinking, and less senseless and brutal violence