Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

I wish I could see a way forward where Israelis and Palestinians could both feel secure. But I can’t. I understand Israel’s behaviour. Positioned where it is, with Hamas as just the latest in a long line of groups overtly planning its destruction, how can they be anything but paranoid?
Palestinians are the butt of bad behaviour by their neighbours as well, none of whom want to get involved possibly because they share the aims of Hamas, possibly because they fear Palestinians unsettling their own population.

I have to oppose Hamas and their objectives, religion and behaviour even though the cost to their own people is horrendous. They are ruling by majority of power if not honest numbers- hard to tell. And their regime is horrendously oppressive and should not be supported. The omnicause are idiots for not considering that.

I do resent it becoming a massive part of our political landscape, though. Protests and political fallouts here because of one of many equally brutal wars around the world. I’m not sure it’s honest. I suspect the underlying motives. I don’t think the people agitating about this give a rats arse about the trauma and oppression experienced elsewhere.

Running a liitle short of time - but I agree with @SidewaysOtter and @SionnachRuadh Thank you both for expressing things so well.

Until Oct 7th I had much more sympathy for the Palestinians and actually I spent years not buying stuff from Israel. I'm afraid I was a bit lazy/omnicasue in some areas of life.

The middle east/Israel/Palestine is dreadfully complicated. But there is no doubt in my mind that the only place livable for me as a woman in that region would be Israel. I'm not saying its perfect but it is my far the most liberal country in ME.

Queers for Palestine is the worst joke of the decade, perhaps century.

The idea that this is a race issue with Isreal = white vs Palestine = brown is laughable. I knew many Palestinian Israelies where we used to live in London, and they were all super happy to be Israeli.

I am part of a large group/collective of feminsts & I would be in the minority. Most are more pro Palestine & some even pro Hamas. How does that work?

I think Hamas are despicable terrorists & misogynists (so often these go hand in hand) and while I feel dreadful for ANY civillian population caught up in war, the way Hamas use their own people as human shields etc is beyond reproach.

This issue is not something I am prepared to spend time on arguing about online. I simply do not have the time/space in my life for it, and I don't have the depth of knowledge to wade into it. All I see are people/statements/"facts" that are always in conflict. It is very difficult to ascertain "truths". I am sure most of us are in this same position, but while many will outsource their thinking, this isn't something I am prepared to do. So I remain mostly in the dark as are the vast majority of people - except very few will admit this. If I don't understand something I like to investigate & ask questions until I do understand it - this lead me to a quite deep understanding of the GC/trans/womens rights debate. I don't have the time to invest in Israel/Palestine but if I did I'm not convinced I would have any more clarity that I do currently.

If its true about the billions the Hamas leaders have taken for themselves, we need to have a serious rethink as to how aid is given to Palestine - we must not be giving aid that us syphoned off for the personal enrichment of these horrible men, or to fund their terror chests.

I'm probaly an Islamaphobe - I studied history of Islam at university and am under no doubt that it is a colonising religion. Its a dreadful religion for women/girls & I do not support it in any way (beyond individuals rights to their religion). If you compare say Malaysia in the 80's/90's and Malaysia now, things have got increasingly regressive as Islam has converted so many people. I do not see Islam as being any good for women at all and I am concerned about attempts to change our society in the UK to accommodate this religion. I'd prefer all religion to be a personal thing. I don't want to be affected by religions I do not believe in (ie pretty much all of it). I am astonished how many feminists seem to be pro Islam.

The remaining hostages must be returned home.

As a feminist, I support a society where women have full rights rather than one that lives in the dark ages. As a democrat, I support a democracy rather than a society of thugs. If that makes me right wing, I really do not give a flying fuck. Threads like these are meant to shame and coerce women into leftwing tribalism.

Me too.

It's all propaganda.

Everything is a distortion and a distraction.

If you care so passionately about any of it, you have been brainwashed.

What are you thoughts, OP, on Iran? Turkey, and Russia's involvement? The US' involvement? The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt - do you agree with their stance on Palestine? What about the so-called Arab Winter, (or Spring) is/was that a good or a bad thing, in your book?

Are you supportive of the Lebanese coalition government, which includes representatives from across the Lebanese (admittedly fairly narrow) political spectrum?

This is a situation so complex and wide ranging, and encompassing so many geopolitical topics, so much history and contested history at that - the context seems almost ungraspable to me, and the more I learn about it the less I feel I know. Plus - who do we trust to report? We know much of what comes out of that region is propaganda, or distorted.

War is shit. War is awful. People suffer horribly, and mistruths and disinformation are everywhere. Both sides obfuscate and distort. I say both sides; there are many sides.

Knee jerk assumptions and black and white thinking help nobody.

I saw some supposed progressives from the UK jumping up to cheer the overthrowing of Bashar al Ashad, despite not a lot of evidence that life for Syrians - and particularly for women - would necessarily improve under an ex Al Quaeda leader.

Anyway. Feminists. Right wingers, eh? Do go on.

Perhaps the OP was just looking for a condemnathon.

I salute the many thoughtful and insightful posts that refuse to join in a game of simplistic bullshit, blame, and assumpton.

The Left is full of tribalistic forced teaming, where it can't understand or accept that people can agree on one topic and not another, and that's just one reason why it's losing support like crazy.

Exactly this. There was a thread recently asking why so few of the people purity-spiralling over the Israel/Palestine conflict on a left = good, right = bad basis didn't give a crap about the unholy shitshow currently unfolding in South Sudan. Or, indeed, why Israel was being arbitrarily attached to the right and Palestine the left. Some of the Unions have found themselves in hot water over that as well. I'm assuming finding themselves accused of racism was a wholly new experience for my own union specifically, and they went very uncharacteristically quiet over the whole shebang.

I asked a colleague who is a frequent pro-Palestinian demonstrator what she thought to the Sudan crisis and the treatment of first nation Australians and the Saskatoon starlight tours in supposedly 'woke' Canada. Unsurprisingly, she had little insight into either. And given the comparative silence about issues like this as opposed to the current ME mess, I have to conclude that unless these horrendous global human rights abuses fit into some neat, if inaccurate left/right paradigm, people are not interested. It's all about the 'look at me, I'm a good person waving a flag for the right (as in correct) side'. I find it nauseating, TBH.

Also, the modern Left would lose its nut if it realised that the creation of Israel was a left wing project. That's why kibbutzes exist.

That's what scares me. As one on the traditional left, I'll never be 'right wing' by whatever was previously understood as the meaning of those words, much less today's 'right': full of barmy conspiracy theories, spray-on St George flags and bleating on about 'boat people'.

But I can well understand why people are looking at what's masquerading as the left today and thinking 'if that's what the left now stands for, what's so wrong with the right?'

Hence 1930s rhetoric comes full circle. I've never felt more betrayed or politically homeless than I do now.

Ed. to say I'm sick as fuck of the word 'align' and the moment I encounter it is the moment I stop reading. It's as lazy, uncritical and sheep-witted as they come.

Yes. I've said it before. The modern Left has spent a long time now accusing all manner of reasonable and valid viewpoints of being Far Right, not even just centre right. And now it's amazed that people are wondering what's so terrible about being far right.

It's easy to spot the terrorist. He's the one with the biggest bomb.
Brendan Behan.

I can’t even take them seriously anymore. Every time they cry ‘fascist’ all I can think of is Rik Mayall!

This is why I love this forum. Such a great thread. Probably the most intelligent thing I've read about this conflict. My conclusion .. I don't know the answer, what I do know is that anyone who thinks it's simple, good v evil, is delusional. What's the solution? I have no idea.

I agree @Mollyollydolly

i actually think this is the first time I’ve even posted anything anywhere about how I feel on this conflict. So yes, much credit to this forum.

Based on the actions of the Soviet Union and China, I don’t see anything inherently anti-colonialist about left wing politics. Of course maybe you’re referring to a fantasy utopian left-wing government as opposed to the real implementations we’ve seen in practice.

Do anti Zionists think that Israel should cease to exist, can anyone elucidate?

Islam is 100% a colonising religion though.

it surprises me so many “anti-colonialism” types are pro Islam.

it makes no sense.

Islam would take the entire planet if it could. They'd be happy with everybody becoming a muslim.

In fact, they don't call people convert, they call them reverts. Because they believe that everybody's muslim when they re born, and they just come back to it.

It's obscene wickedness.

And it’s not just about making people religious, but making states/government religious too.

White guilt and cultural relativism? Ridiculous concepts to my mind but it seems prevalent on the political/modern left - see also the failure to address the grooming gangs. Where it comes from seems to stem from a mixture of Islam being seen as a minority, not being "colonial" (and possibly 'making up' for the Crusades, although you'd like to think that we're all a bit over that by now) and a promotion of the 'multiculturalism is good' mantra.

On a 'no sense' theme, I struggled to get my head around why the political/modern left is anti-semitic. After all, what demographic could possibly have been more demonised and oppressed throughout history than Jews?

Except that Jews are - apparently - seen as capitalist (the stereotype/trope of the rich Jewish banker) and their strong community connections don't fall in with left wing ideals. Plus they're deemed to be white so all of this means they are obviously terrible oppressors who are beyond the political pale

I would say I'm left wing - I believe in a society that supports the members who need more help. I believe that good housing, education and healthcare should be free to all. I believe it should be paid for by those who are able to, and those who are able to pay more should contribute more. I believe that everyone has the right to a good standard of living. But I also believe in people taking responsibility for themselves as far as possible, and I do not believe in the left wing ideas of everyone being some kind of victim who needs to be coddled by the state. And I absolutely do not believe in the sort of nonsense that goes on these days with women's rights thrown under the bus, Palestine Action, purity spirals, cancellation, Extinction Rebellion, anti-semitism and all the while knee-deep in keffiyehs and excusing the most appalling behaviour if it comes from the 'right' people'. Where the fuck did this all come from?

As the saying goes I didn't leave the left, the left left me.

Yeah @SidewaysOtteri feel the same way. I think many of us do. But now “the left” demonises us.

I do think the left/right political dichotomy is probably over now. It’s all become meaningless. And all this shouting & demonising each other is so awful - not just personally, but I do think the social structure of the uk (and no doubt elsewhere) is being undermined & eroded. I’m an immigrant & I chose to live in England. I think it’s a fantastic country. And it’s diversity, tolerance & also English pride, comedy & culture were so attractive I was so happy I could live here. It feels much less tolerant & accepting now. The melting pot seems to be self separating, I’m worried it’s all coming undone.

I guess what we are seeing now is the impact of & changes as a result of the internet & smart phones. Our kids are going to have a lot to navigate in a swiftly changing world.

I wasn't supporting intersectional feminism - which tends to be pro-gender ideology. I mean I support all women, even those who don't want to be supported.

I suppose one problem is that our fashionable thinkers hate America but seem to import every cranky fad from American campus politics.

I'm not saying Britain has ever done multiculturalism perfectly, but it's done it quite well and doesn't have the American pathologies over race. Which are currently in a very weird place. I think most of us grew up in an era when the American centre ground - everyone from liberal Republicans through all mainstream Democrats to the Communist Party - subscribed to the Martin Luther King idea of the colour blind future. Nowadays you've got Donald Trump (!) going to Detroit to talk about urban regeneration and black jobs, while the campus left is well on its way to adopting a wokified version of segregation and 1920s race science.

Which will get filtered into the UK by overeducated nitwits who think all the best ideas come from California and don't appreciate that we are a different country. Those BLM protesters in London a few years ago chanting "hands up, don't shoot" at unarmed British coppers? That's the future of the UK activist world. You see them now on Reddit saying "y'all" and talking about "bathroom bills".

It's interesting how, in the generation since 9/11, Islam has become "left coded" and Judaism "right coded", and this has a lot more to do with white left fashions than anything inherent to those communities.