Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

What a strange question - I guess it’s just the circles you move in

Very interesting, I'd agree with all.

One question : what do you mean by Judaism's strong community connections not aligning with left wing ideas? To my left-centrist mind, community is key to left-wing. This doesn't mean it should overwelm individual choice, but it's

Did you mean that Jewish people are perceived by some of the left to look out for their own community before others? Which ofc has been an anti-semitic trope used by both left and right.

While I mostly agree, I would point out that there has always been a segment of the US black community which responded to anti-black racism with anti-white racism. This has been constant since Malcolm X & the Nation of Islam & probs before that.

See John mcWhorter's 2000 book Losing The Race, where he mentions loads of 1990s examples of prejudice being fought w prejudice, an egregious one being the black community's defence of OJ Simpson.

Or take the fact that Clinton had to rebuke extremist black elements back in 1992, including not only a rapper who afterwards wrote for the New Yorker, but Jesse Jackson & many other black Democrats.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sister_Souljah_moment

Take the Jeremiah Wright controversy, a pastor who strongly influenced Obama, who had the sense the ignore his extremist views.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright_controversy

These problems are more intense now in the US certainly, but they are by no means new. The Fresh Prince era was not as united as is often implied now.

These problems have not stayed within the black community. Look at Tom Wolfe's famous Radical Chic article about celebrities of the 70s who supported the Black Panthers. Look at the white Democrats who supported the things in my above post.

What is the main point you are trying to make @Krakinou because I can't see it? It seems that you have mixed up:
Gender Critical
Religious beliefs
Feminism
And politics.
You claim that it is logical to be atheist if one is a feminist. Why? Why cannot an ordained woman be a feminist? Or why can't a feminist lead a Christian life and be GC at the same time. We might vote differently if we move from England to Scotland but still have the same opinions.
Muslim attitudes and teaching about women are a separate topic and are very dependent on location.
Trying to bundle all your ideas to form a common philosophy that ties them with logic will soon have you faced with having to accommodate opposing ideas within one brain. IMHO.

For some on the left I think this is quite simple - so simple it's hard to believe it's real - it's the result of the ideology they've been taught which says that "whiteness" is a material force of evil, and anti-whiteness is always good.

I know it's hard to imagine real people think that way, but it's straight out of Robin DiAngelo and her ilk, and what a lot of Americans in particular are being taught at university. Whiteness is always racist, all white people are racist and institution sin western society.

So most Jews are white, in particular in the US, and most Muslims are darker skinned, so they are the oppressed.

Yes, me too. This is a really fascinating thread. I’m so impressed it has been so little derailed and (mostly) so courteous. I really do appreciate this board.

One question : what do you mean by Judaism's strong community connections not aligning with left wing ideas?

@AliasGrace47 I’m thinking here of far-left ideas about breaking up family groups (Khmer Rouge et al) which I think filter down to more “everyday” left thinking about communal living, everyone being equal and the family unit not being compatible with that.

One question : what do you mean by Judaism's strong community connections not aligning with left wing ideas?

@AliasGrace47 I’m thinking here of far-left ideas about breaking up family groups (Khmer Rouge et al) which I think filter down to more “everyday” left thinking about communal living, everyone being equal and the family unit not being compatible with that.

I've certainly never held that opinion. I used to believe in the Two State Solution. But I've realised it is just a chimera. Pious platitudes mouthed by Western governments even as Israeli land grabbing renders it null and void. So , One State it is . That can only work as a unitary , secular state with no privileged groups or castes. The kind of state Israel's apologists pretend has existed since 1948 in fact. Go for it.

Yes exactly. Marx thought the nuclear family was an economic unit that reinforced class divisions and the perpetuation of private property via inheritance, so it was something to be broken up/discouraged.

How about we start with 2 state solution and Palestine turns itself into a functioning secular democracy with equal human rights for men and women, gay people and different religions. Then if they're successful there can be a merger.

I think this is a social media thing. I think in the real world (well my real world) - teacher, Scotland, middle class but friends from all over. Age 50. Most people I know are gender critical (an age thing) to various degrees and anti current Israel. Not anti semitic but anti the onslaught in Gaza.

I don't really understand how this would work. Does either Israel or Palestine favour a One state? You think Israel should absorb Palestine entirely?

I've been scratching my head over these weird, nebulous, apparently arbitrary left/right distinctions for some time, but you've put my direction of thought into clear words here. What comes through most strongly in your post is the absolutism, rigidity and herd mentality of this type of 'thinking', and I use that term loosely. If a particular brand of activitism stands up with a badge on it - or more usually a flag - stamped with some implied leftist code, the herd will follow in order not to be branded 'right' or have the entirety of their views lazily 'aligned' with extremist right-wing politics.

The inclination even to argue with such a complete absence of critical thinking, the chanting of slogans and an assumption that 'if we repeat a thing often enough that makes it true', is exhausting.

Campus politics is a good name for it. Universities are in no small part to blame for this. It's also interesting how adherents to so-called 'queer theory' apparently have no idea that their overlord Foucault was arguing from a predominantly gender critical position, or that 'intersectionality' was an account of the very real, dual discrimination black women face on account of both their sex and their race. As usual, though, these ideas are misappropriated and twisted by more privileged groups engaged in a determined race to the bottom toward 'victim' status.

How on earth Islam and Judaism did an about-face from right to left back to right again has been eluding me, but I think this is at least in part the reason. I'm disgusted with the left: it's turned right, in my view and this isn't the usual scenario of people becoming more right-wing as we get older. Look at most of the posts on FWR - 'gender' is a cross-political issue and women posting here are very obviously not on the right. I'm with @SidewaysOtter - the left, left us.

Again that boils down to the West imposing our worldview on how the rest of the planet should be.

I've started thinking more like this as well - though not in a "I've got the solution!" way. The two-state system would have to be properly backed by the rest of the world, and Israel not just able to shove people off land with impunity. But there seems to be no will to do that, plus the Palestinian state if run by a Hamas-like organisation does have a chance of being another Afghanistan. Which on the one hand is the business of that state, but also not something most other countries want to be involved with enabling.

It does seem (in purely conceptual terms) to make more sense for everyone who lays claim to that land to live there, in a holy land state that has citizens of various religions, either living side by side or in their own areas (CF N. Ireland (I know it's not a state), Nigeria, Lebanon etc). Since Israel does have palestinian and muslim (and other) citizens who aren't Jewish, in theory there's no reason why they can't all live as one state, but it would be better if it was a new secular state not just "the Jewish state".

Practically, there is so much bad blood between the parties involved, and Israel's claim to its own homeland is so prioritized by world powers, that I can't see a path to that being agreed or it working without civil war. But it still does seem to make the most sense, seeing as plenty of other countries manage it.

History is full of blood-soaked fights over land that went on for decades or centuries because people felt so strongly that they were the ones with the right to be there. The end result from these situations (where they are not still ongoing) may be that they figure out how to share peacefully, or ultimately some other empire comes along and wipes them off the map. Harsh but true.

I'm not pro-Israel (I'm also not a woman, but am gender critical)

I do tend to roll my eyes at most of the pro Palestine protests though. Not because I don't think what's happening in Gaza isn't horrific. It is, as we're the attacks on Israel my Hamas.

I roll my eyes because most of those protesting don't particularly give a shit about Gaza. Just like they don't particularly care about trans rights, or Black Lives Matter, or whatever else gets rolled up into the omni-cause next week. Most of these people just protest because they want to be seen to be protesting, they want to be seen to be doing good, because that makes them feel good. They need the world to be full of goodies and baddies and they need to make it clear which side they're on.

They wouldn't be happy if the world became a peaceful utopia where everyone was happy and content, and noone ever came into conflict with each other. Because then they'd have nothing to rail against, and would have to find something else to base their entire personalities around.

I am GC, I am definitely not Pro-Israel (in the way that I think you mean) nor am I pro-Hamas.

I am pro and end to violence, and a negotiated settlement as a mechanism to a sustainable peace.

Can anyone in favour of a one state solution tell me of an Arab country in which Jews have equal rights?

Hamas and the palestinians don't want that. They want israel gone and they want the whole country back.It's astonishing how many people don't know this.

They're not going to stop committing acts of violence until israel.No longer exists. They don't have the military capability to destroy Israel, and they know this. They should accept a deal, but they won't.

I don't think one can really talk about Palestine in isolation. Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Egypt, Turkey, Yemen, etc. are all implicated and interconnected (and also often individually riven with factions and differences). Middle Eastern politics is immense. Religiously shaded, including rival factions within those religions. And tribal histories. And complicated by larger powers using it for proxy ball-swinging.

Agree. Yasmine Mohammed's YouTube is a pretty fascinating one because she interviews such a broad range of people from all over the Middle East. She had a guy who was a former member of the Islamic Brotherhood, Gazans, West Bank Palestinians, Israelis, Iranians.

Thanks, just had a look. A very broad range of subjects indeed. Looks fascinating, will watch.

Ah I see, that makes sense. If only left wing could focus on building up friendships, community etc rather than attacking things. Obvs only caring about your own family's wellbeing is bad, but so is the other extreme.

Ironically ofc any tribalism becomes rather like people who only look out for their own family & no-one else.

I agree mostly.

I think a key issue is that I've seen the argument a lot that Jews must remain a majority in Israel so they are safe, esp as they are a minority in every other country (the US, with the 2nd largest Jewish population, is around 2% Jewish)

Sometimes this is used to justify arguable settler overreach, and obvs it's understandable that some Palestinians would feel uncomfortable w Israel having the Star of David on their flag etc if it's meant to be an ethnically neutral state...

It's v hard, I lean more towards to Jewish side as they need somewhere to feel safe (obvs should be safe everywhere!) but I can see both...