Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

I don't see a correlation between being a GC feminist and being Islamophobic. GC feminists tend to be on the left, favour a two-state solution, and think Netanyahu is going about things the wrong way. They might think Islam harms women, but they don't hate Muslims.

I do see a correlation between being an enthusiast for gender ideology and being anti-semitic: in particular, failing to understand that Zionism is necessary to protect the Jews. They see Jews and 'cis' women as powerful and privileged alike, despite the history of abuse of both groups.

My perceptions could be way off. It might be interesting to devise a poll that would capture these alignments, if they exist.

But surely your feeling is based on reading, what - 10 to 20 usernames? Some online articles that the algorithm presents to you?

Have you actually thought objectively about whether 'so many GC women are pro-israel' is an accurate conclusion to draw, or are you happy to judge a large and diverse group of people in this way?

You're coy about how many "so many" is to you. What do you actually mean?

Do you mean "I've read 15 GC articles and I'm wondering if this is a significant overlap of beliefs?"

Sorry, I'm not having a go even though it sounds like it! I just can't stand vague statements that are presented to be agreed/ disagreed with. That's not how we discover truths about the world.

Yeah, this is also my feeling but it’s so frustrating. Maybe I need to reread Right Wing Women.

I think this is an interesting question and welcome you asking it. I cannot say that I have noticed the conflation of the two issues on MN but it is honestly the reason I left Xitter - far too many of the feminists I’d been following on there for years were suddenly posting awful propaganda for Israel.

@potpourree
I’m basing my “feeling” on a few years actively reading and participating in Ovarit before it felt like left-wing voices were pushed off. And I guess articles in Spiked etc which seem to make totally off-topic swipes at things like climate change and Gaza while writing about gender.

So I guess the issue is probably that it’s so much easier for right wing GCers to get published since leftwing press is pretty TRA.

I think any feminist would have a huge issue with the rapes and murders committed by hamas.
That doesn't mean they aren't also horrified at the suffering of the women and children in gaza. But for some reason any mention of oct 7th or disgust at hamas seems to be seen as pro israeli and anti Palestinian regardless of how horrified they also are at the suffering of Palestinian civilians too.
There seems to be a section of the Internet who correlate being anti hamas with being anti Palestinian women and children.

There's also a fear of wolves in sheep's clothing IMO in both cases

I don't know about Mumsnet as a whole but, for what it's worth, my impression is that rather a lot of the posters on this particular board are not right wing at all, but natural left or centre left voters who feel abandoned and let down by Labour, the Greens, the Lib Dems and the independence parties in Scotland and Wales, all of which have embraced gender identity without any proper consideration of its effects on women.

Labour is backtracking now, but at the time of the last election there was a lot of agonising here on the lines of "do I spoil my ballot paper, or do I hold my nose and vote for the perfidious party I supported for years but who now won't support my sex, or do I do the unthinkable and vote Tory?"

I think "Gaza MPs" may be a slightly different issue. Less to do with it being Gaza in particular and more that a UK MP's primary focus should be the constituency they are elected to serve.

@theilltemperedmaggotintheheartofthelaw
I would consider left-wing to mean anti-colonialism, and a solution of one non-religious state.

I don’t believe it’s antisemitic to be against Zionism, any more than it’s Islamophobic to be against a state formed around any other religion.

I don’t agree that there’s a natural alliance between women and Jewish people. Women’s oppression is constant across cultures, history, race, religions. But if a logical common interest exists it would be equally valid for all colonized people, therefore more logically anti-Zionist.

That wasn't a thread of this feminist forum as far as I remember, or do you mean Mumsnet as a whole?

Fyi Jeremy Corbyn previously called Hamas and Hezbollah "friends" which is where the nickname Jezbollah comes from, Jez being short for Jeremy.

@Heggettypeg the hold-my-nose issue is huge, and tbh I feel relieved I can’t vote in the UK anymore so didn’t have to make that decision. I would like to see a party where different opinions can exist together and that prioritizes open discussion. The gender nonsense thrives in the tribalism politics we have at the moment.

Your arguing that the Jewish people are colonists of their own land and that antisemitism is logical.
Do you know why Egypt hasn't opened the raffa crossing or why Jordan deported all the Palestinians?
when you do think again about your statement that I've quoted.
Oh and no I dont agree with Israels current actions I just don't hold an entire religion responsible for the decisions of a handful of people who happened to be in power when the 7/10 atrocities happened especially when hamas could end this all by returning the hostages

I have a general sense that, while in the past it was common to be in broad agreement with one party or faction, it is no longer possible. Each has positions I agree with alongside others that horrify me.

@Krakinou you are contributing to "tribal politics" you despise by making this thread! 😂

It's literally called "why are so many GC feminists pro Israel"?

I disagree profoundly with your analysis
I don't see anti-colonialism as left wing. More post modernist dogma. That doesn't mean I support colonialism just that I'm very aware of Islam and it's colonial past which the left ignores preferring to adopt anti semitism.
How on earth do you think a one state secular solution is feasible? You do realise Israel is secular and not a theocracy?

I no longer believe in using left and right to describe political positions as it just leads to dogmatic tribal thinking.
I haven't voted for about 5 years now because no political party represents my position, and I am not going be chastised for not being 'left wing' enough.

@Imnobody4 nobody is “chastising you for not being left-wing enough”. Get a grip.

And either a secular state is feasible or Israel is not a secular state. Which is it?

logically atheist and frankly anti-religion

Then you'd agree with those GC feminists who are anti-Muslim, then.

So what's your point?

I don’t think anti-colonialism is particularly left wing.

Don't know about the bigger picture, but this is what bothers me: Hamas is given a free pass based - as far as I can tell - purely on their comparative lack of weaponry.

(Yes, Netanyahu & Co's aggression has morphed far beyond revenge into a naked land grab no matter the cost in suffering. Yes, that's revolting and should have stopped before it started.)

But ONLY because Hamas can't win does not make them the good guys. I think maybe GC women see that more clearly because they also see clearly how atrociously they treat women. Just one example: Hamas could end the suffering in Gaza by admitting defeat and not fighting. But somehow it's not up to them to take care of Gazans. It's up to the UN. (https://archive.is/cPeRD Mousa Abu Marzouk, deputy leader, based in Qatar. I'm not making this up.)

Israelis demonstrate against the government; Gazans would be taking their life in their hands to do the same against Hamas. Hamas murders gays, not "just" women. Etc etc etc. They are appalling vicious religious fanatics.

That doesn't change the fact that Netanyahu and his right wing power-sharing religious Jewish fundies are also appalling and unprincipled. Two things can be true at the same time.

Anyway, I guess this is a long way of saying what Hamas and the patriarchy generally have in common is being anti-woman. So being GC will tend to set you against both. Which doesn't, or shouldn't, make anyone favour Netanyahu's current horrible policies.

This conflict has been happening for over 100 years. It is impossible for anyone to have any type of unbiased view on the situation.

Being that I am neither Muslim or Jewish I don’t have to have any opinion on the conflict outside of my personal feelings. Nothing I do or say is valuable to the conflict but I can say that committing a horrific terrorist attack on unarmed people and starving thousands to death are heinous acts without justification.

Ceasefire is the only way forward.

I'm pro Israel but that doesn't mean I'm anti Palestinians or think Netanyahu has conducted the war ethically. Several posts here , on both sides, seem to want it to be very black and white, but it's not.

I get what you are saying, OP, and share your feeling.

You are conflating two separate issues. It is not left or right wing to not want people raped or killed or women’s rights destroyed. It is being a human.

I don’t know anyone who is vocally pro-Israel GC or not. I don’t think there is necessarily a link. To your other point, the GC people I know are probably also the most leftist people I know.

The problem is that with TWAW, the Left, especially the Greens in most Western democratic countries, deeply betrayed the women who disproportionately supported that line of politics, in the belief that our interests and concerns were best represented there. Until a few years ago I would have been at any anti war protest going, and I have always had a deep sympathy for the Palestinian cause. Now I stay away from any political movement that I suspect holds me in contempt for refusing to believe in gender ideology. Maybe ultimately the goal of GI was to separate socially minded people from each other and to fracture the Left beyond repair. JKR has warned the Labour Party many times about this. But, so be it. I refuse to march alongside anyone who believes women to be costumes. I don’t care what else they believe. If they believe that, I will not be any sort of tea lady or flag bearer for their virtue signalling parades. Palestine/Israel is infinitely complicated and unsolvable. No amount of white or brown, middle class, western guilt or banner waving will make any difference to the horror that is unfolding there.