Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

No, I don’t get the same impression at all that you do
I feel like you’re trying to conflate two different sets of views. One does not automatically follow the other.

Ah the forced teaming of gc=racist haven't you got anything original

@curious79 I know one doesn’t logically follow the other. That’s why I’m confused/upset about it. A small example but reading the thread about the new party and people slagging off “GazaMPs”, making sweeping statements about Muslims marrying cousins, “Jezbollah” etc

Right wing belief system.

I don’t think this is right at all. There is an anti-trans strain in politics which is v right wing and pro Israel and wanting to enforce gendered norms of behaviour. That’s completely separate from GC feminists who are across the spectrum politically (although IME more on the left) and very much against the idea of gendered norms.

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with?

That's why the utter silence of most of the women on mumsnet, about the brutality and sexual torture, israeli women were subjected to on the seventh of october, appalls me.

You first as a feminist, have you not spoken out about the rape and torture these women were subjected to?

Or do you just parrot the word genocide like all the rest.

I AM GC! And not a racist thanks.

What proportion have you calculated to be pro-Israel and how did you reach this figure?

Bit hard to have an actual discussion on it if we're all guessing what you're talking about as "so many". Three? 90%?

Or by all means don't bother if you want this to be a logic-free thread of throwing guessed accusations around.

OP, if you’re going to throw those kinds of accusations around, you’re going to need to produce the receipts.

I won’t hold my breath …

I have to say that being on this forum for a long time I've never noticed it at all - most GC women have indicated that they think all violence is despicable.

potpouree, I haven’t made a calculation. Just a feeling I get and wondering if other women on here have the same impression and how people feel about it.

The snarky comments I see about Gaza tend to be about groups like Queers for Palestine. I would genuinely be interested to see examples of posts dehumanising Palestinians on this board because I don’t recall seeing any. Palestine and Israel aren’t discussed all that much to be honest.

@WishSheWouldGoAway I think it should be obvious that I’m against sexual violence of any form especially as a weapon of war. I don’t think 50 deaths per person in revenge is proportionate response. You do?

Anyway, I’m not trying to make an argument about Palestine here. I’m asking for people’s feelings on the correlation (or not) on this board.

I think this is a reasonable question, and have also sometimes wondered this (not just on here - also in real life). I did wonder if the fact that many TRA supporters are also, via some form of general omnicause activism, so militant on the pro-Gaza front, that this has forced some GC feminists towards a more pro-Israel stance.

I mean, I have literally been caught up in a trans rights joint with Palestinian rights protest, for which the main slogan being chanted was “one struggle, one fight, Palestine and trans rights” as if the two things inevitably go together. Obviously they don’t, and shouldn’t, but I suspect it causes some forced teaming of pro-Israel views with anti-TRA activism?

Anyway, I’m not trying to make an argument about Palestine here.

But you're doing it anyway. Please don't think nobody sees it.

THIS!

Yes, exactly - things like “Queers for Palestine” is what I meant too. (I haven’t seen many “Palestinians for Queers” organisations, by contrast)

So what hamas are just allowed to win until they do it again?

What's the end game here.

If you based on the numbers alone, were the allies wrong in world war two? Because many more germans died, than brits died in world war two did that make us wrong?

Based on this flawed, logic of too many people are being killed by Israel - applying the same logic to world war ii, the allies should have stopped.And just let germany continue because they were killing too many civilians.

It's completely flawed, and you know it.And now I don't get the impression you against sexual violence.I get the impression that most pro Palestine don't give a damn about what happened to the israeli women.

No one gets to start a war and then claim victim when they start losing it.

Edit - have seen no such correlation whatsoever.I don't even know where you got that from or where the premise came from.

You can be feminist and anti-Hezbollah and not pro-Israel’s actions, or pro-Israel at all.

I think there’s a lot of anti-Muslim feeling from some feminists because support for a lot of Muslim cultural norms in the UK is not seen as being in the interests of women as a sex class. And much of the Gaza supporting rhetoric is by the politicians and activists who have most increased the access to power of fairly fundamentalist Muslim activists and have not challenged the cultural norms for women. Whereas support for Israel is not seen as likely to increase orthodox Jewish influence on mainstream British culture.

There's a link in the sense of both GC and pro-Israel supporters standing for two sections of society that have experienced thousands of years of being persecuted.

The link is in the urge to protect the very flimsy existing boundaries that both have fought hard to create.

My impression is many woman on the forum do not support religions which place the males in the dominant position. This means most religions.

I do not agree with people (mainly politicians or those in power) using race, expansion or religion as an excuse to attack/invade another country. One person on another thread claimed there are 101 conflicts currently active in the world. Some of these are taking places between people who share the same religion, but belong to different factions.

Religion and power are, too often, a dangerous combination.

@Catabogus I think you have a point about a reaction to forced teaming on the other side.

But I think that’s one thing I find especially depressing about it. For me, suddenly finding myself the “bad guy” for being GC made me realize how important it is to think critically about all issues rather than just accept the team view.

My impression is that the failure of the ‘left’ (in quotes because what passes for the left isn’t left in any meaningful sense at all) to accept the basic rights of women to single sex spaces, & the very existence of biological sex, has unfortunately funnelled many gc women & men towards what I would describe as a broad pattern of quite extreme right wing views, including racism. I have seen this in my own social circle - a real change over the past few years in the views of women who have sharply moved to the right, as the ‘left’ abandoned them.

I also think this is one of the reasons why transgender ideology has been so strongly promoted by existing power structures. It distracts the ‘left’, & funnels centrists to the right.

Distract, divide, delegitimise. Old playbook.

GC articles about Gaza

Can you link these GC articles please.

@WimbledonWhites i gave a few examples above from the thread on Corbyns new party, though going back to check the examples it’s true that most are just comments between the same 3/4 people. Not the majority of the thread. So point taken.