Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

Yep. Approved list of causes. Why aren't we in the streets advocating for the dying children of the Sudan? MiLLIONS of them. Nobody cares. Absolutely nobody. Probably because they're African and therefore expected by our prejudices to starve to death. Probably because there's so little news footage and we only react to images. Estimates of numbers starving herein https://civil-protection-humanitarian-aid.ec.europa.eu/where/africa/sudan_en#:~:text=Despite%20these%20critical%20needs%2C%20humanitarian,Sudan%20via%20multi%2Dmodal%20transport.
You may not want to read it. You may not want to chase down further information about raped women and dead children. Why do we behave as if Palestine is the worst conflict, the most important conflict? Would you be shocked if I simply.ignored it completely, and talked only about the refugees of the Western Sahara? (I'd bet my house that most people have never even heard of these lost people, living out their lives in camps, exiled from their homeland by an invader. Which, as it happened, wasn't Israel. But noone gives a toss about that landgrab, do they?) Hamas is wicked, Netanyahu is wicked, and around 500,000 Israelis went into the streets this week to say so. That's 5% of the entire population. A demonstration of an equivalent % in the UK is near-unimagjnable and would certainly bring down a government. An anti-Hamas demonstration in Palestine is entirely unimaginable. I am consumed with anger at governments, Hamas, the uninformed public, and The Omnicause.

I just wanted to pop up and say any GC "pro-Israel" (whatever that means) women are of course welcome in this forum.

I'm not going to tell a woman who could have been a rape victim of Hamas, or know someone who was, that she's wrong to support Israel.

Not gonna. If you are OP, take a really close look in the mirror.

@busybusybusy2015

An anti-Hamas demonstration in Palestine is entirely unimaginable

There was such a thing a few months ago. This is the sort of fate that befell these protestors. Oday Nasser Al Rabay was the name of one of the protestors. A 22 year old man. He was abducted off the streets by Hamas, tortured and beaten, stripped and dragged through the streets by a rope around his neck and dumped with his family who were told that this is the fate of everyone who defies Hamas. He died shortly afterwards in hospital.

Do you know what the Israeli government has been doing to the protestors in Israel against them? Nothing.

I support the twats too, they need help.

To not realise that you sound one sided shows a lot.
Netanyahu may not be recognised as a terrorist group but his annihilation of ordinary people and children in response to the awful atrocities perpetrated by Hamas are as bad. The footage you saw didn't show every single palestinian supporting Hamas, just as not every single Irish Catholic supported the IRA or every single Protestant supported the UVF or the UDA.
There is no excuse for the actions of Hamas but have you ever looked in to the unbalanced life Palestinians live in in the occupied territories?

Why has this not been moved to the Conflict in the Middle East forum yet, I wonder? Usually MNHQ is so quick to move anything about sex and gender here.

Indeed. That's real intersectional feminism from Grammarnut. It's so very very difficult sometimes 😫

I think that women on all sides who want peace should have solidarity and act to stop wars by holding a sex strike and refusing to have more children to be used as cannon fodder. But then we see as feminists who actually have the right todo this and who doesn’t have control of their reproductive rights. Says a lot really .

Its not annihilation though is it? We both hear people condemning Israel for telling civilians to move to avoid being killed in oncoming military action, and we hear people condemning Israel for civilians that are killed in military strikes. This means the only option that these critics will leave open for Israel is not defending itself and its citizens. And that is shameful. To think Israel, unique amongst countries of the world should not defend itself from attackers, is shameful.

And the condemnation you never hear from these critics of Israel is of Hamas for not shielding its citizens in the tunnels it has built all under Gaza for its fighters, but not for its own civilians. Its astonishing and shameful that Hamas is not being condemned by those who think they are pro-Palestinian. Where are the placards on the marches condemning Hamas for that? Where are the placards on the pro-Palestinian marches demanding Hamas hand back the hostages?

It is shameful to compare how Israel has conducted its military campaign to the way Hamas has. Hamas is not only trying to murder Israelis, but it regards the death of its own civilians, due to the conflict it caused, as a propaganda boon.

As for the imbalance in life, do you never consider where much of that imbalance comes from? Israel left Gaza in 2005. Hamas has since used the billions it got in aid to enrich itself, arm itself, build a huge tunnel network only for itself, and to prepare to start a war by massacring and torturing Jews on October 7th. It has not used those billions to build up Gaza into a successful, peaceful country that proves it can live prosperously alongside Israel in a genuinely two state solution. Instead, it used the aid to prove that cannot happen.

And the inequality in women's rights in Gaza and Israel is due entirely to Hamas and Gazans. And the inequality in LGBT rights is due entirely to Hamas and Palestinians. And the inequality in democracy is due entirely to Hamas.

You should write a play about that 😉

There is also ethnic cleansing in the West Bank that is not even controlled by Hamas

Am I "pro-Israel" if I think the current ongoing actions of the Israeli government are horrific, and the Palestinians should have independence, but also a state of Israel should continue to exist and many leading Palestinians are also terrible people?

A big chunk of the popular left (the same is true of the popular right) does not like nuance, or independence. It thinks the world is made up of goodies and baddies. You agree with it as to who the goodies and baddies are, or you are yourself a baddie - unless you are a goodie anyway by virtue of your extremely oppressed status. These extremely oppressed goodies, it has been decided, include trans people and the Palestinians. The fact that some trans people, and some Palestians, might be murderous rapists, can be safely ignored.

GC people on the other hand are capable of nuanced, independent thinking. They don't decide who is good or bad on the basis of whatever list is being passed around: so they haven't fallen into the "trans people are angels" trap. But this way of thinking might lead to some dangerous views like "maybe we shouldn't imply that indiscriminately killing Jewish people is OK, actually". And those kind of views cannot be accepted by the inflexible left.

I’m going to have to go back to the beginning and read again more carefully, but thank you to all the women pushing back against purity spiralling and blanket condemnation of whatever we’re supposed to condemn.

As for the opening post, I’m a Christian. I didn’t realise that meant I couldn’t be a feminist. I must tell my colleagues working to dismantle remnants of patriarchy in the church. That patriarchy wasn’t baked in by the religion, but by the culture the religion existed in. Acts and the gospels are radical statements of equality. Inevitably the development of the institution in a sexist world leaders to sexism. That’s the church, not the faith. And like every other institution it takes a while to reform.

Writing off swathes of people for having the wrong beliefs is not very progressive.
Accusing women of racism for not buying the party line about the mess in Israel and Gaza.

We have seen how unreliable and one sided the press can be. We aren’t prepared to take our opinions on faith anymore, or trust views spoonfed by the newspapers. No thanks.

"The inequality in women's rights in...... Israel is due entirely to Hamas and Gazans" 🤔

If you read what I said properly you'd see that I don't defend Hamas.

Where have I defended Hamas?

Nowhere

I did not accuse you of defending Hamas

Why do intelligent women perform such crass puerile stunts in the Palestinian cause?

https://x.com/HeidiBachram/status/1958420106288955672?t=Afq5gjNTJhDtHKXq44x9Jw&s=09

Italian doctors posted videos of throwing out Israeli made medicine. When there was a backlash they said they didn’t actually do it. So either they were prepared to waste life saving drugs or perform empty gestures. Should they really be doctors at all?

Some people, though I don't think it's all that many, now just go along with anything they see as 'anti-woke', so they cheer along Israel's actions like they're just done to 'own the libs' and/or because 'See, I'm not antisemitic like those lefties'. (NB, as a Jew I don't believe criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic)

I did read what you said properly. If you read both what you said and I wrote, you will realise I was responding you your point about imbalance between Gazan and Israeli society, and I am pointing out that there are many 'imbalances' that are due to Hamas and/or Palestinian beliefs which create inequality.

Ease? Maybe for the same reason we shop in supermarkets rather than individual shops, or use amazon for everything. It takes time and effort to look deeper.

The problem with this accuont, reasonable though it seems, is the lazy, ideological thinking and left/right compartmentalism that consistently seems to be driving this discussion. (Not suggesting that you are guilty of this, BTW, it's merely the state of the prevailing political winds).

The left/right divide as I once understood it, pivoting around economics, a fairer and more even distribution of wealth, adequate recompense for workers, pro-union stance, etc., no longer exists. It seems to have little left to do with this at all, but in the past 20 years has seen a move from fairer economics to 'progressive' individual rights as opposed to the rights of the collective. Note 'rights': not wellbeing or responsibility. Vote Labour, vote Tory, these days you get the same.

Those masquerading as the progressive left are now extremist MRAs, TRAs - the old domain of the slightly further than right-of-centre. Islam was never seen on the left post 9/11 - society was rife with Islamophobia which was equated with conservative religion and associated terrorism. Look at the total about-face in 20 years - now Islam/Palestine is viewed as 'left' whilst Judaism, at the ultimate butt off far-right hatred in WWII, is now viewed as occupying the right itself. I'm happy to consider other perspectives on that topic, but the thinking to my mind seems no more complex than that. The 'left' follow what's no longer left on pain of being branded 'right'; 'far right' at that, and what brands itself as progressive is quite often its own ugly, regressive opposite.

I can't pretend to understand the full nuances of the Israel/Palestine conflict. It's too ancient, too complex and too nuanced - and I'm thinking back to a day when Yasser Arafat was constantly in the news, the PLO had split off into the ANO, a serious effort was made at a compromise solution. Then Rabin was assassinated, after which the whole region became a simmering pot of resentment threatening to overflow at any moment.

I visited Jerusalem and the West Bank in around 2009. I've seen the mess first-hand. It only surprised me that it's taken this long for it to manifest. There is no 'siding' with Israel or Palestine. You're absolutely right that anti-semitism in the UK has reached a frightening epidemic, that the Hamas attack was racist hatred and terrorism, and that Israel has to defend its citizens. By the same token the 'open prison' thing re. the West Bank is often toted as a racist media stereotype. Open prison is exactly what it is. I've been there. I've seen it. I've seen how broken the Palestinian people were. I've also seen how they live within Israel itself - that isn't equality, they occupy the most impoverished reasons and have fewer opportunities. I also believe Netanyahu is orchestrating an unsanctioned, morally dubious, illegal land-grab and starving Palestinians. At present, do I believe that each side simply wants to wipe the other off the map, for which there's no other word for it but genocide? Yes, and one side has more resources than the other to bring that result about. There are also problems with the surrounding Muslim nations' support - or lack thereof - for the Palestinian people. Is a two-state solution even remotely possible? Probably not. We've seen how attempts at that panned out in the past.

It's an ugly, bloody, racist, horrible stalemate with no end in sight - as to whether that suits the political purposes of someone somewhere, that is another issue. But the ones who receive my full sympathies are the innocent citizens on both sides, who are in no way culpable for the actions of their defence leagues, insurgents and terrorists but are as always the first to suffer.

I agree with @SionnachRuadh's excellent post.

I am so bloody tired of the Omnicause - TWAW, anti-Israel, Extinction Rebellion et al, colonialism is the root of all evil etc - and just as tired of anyone questioning it being accused of "right wing".

The political left (as opposed to what I would call the "social left") indulge in purity spirals and an endless one-downmanship of victimhood and oppression olympics. Certain demographics can do no wrong, others no right. What a neat categorisation which removes the need to think for yourself!

As for Israel, my mind constantly boggles at the idea of 'Queers for Palestine' etc when Hamas are an extremist Islamist regime that has an appalling track record on LGBTQ+ rights. As opposed to Israel which is repeatedly shown to be the most LGBTQ+ tolerant country in the Middle East . But the political left has form for being anti-semitic so I guess it's just any excuse to indulge that.

Israel has not, IMO, covered itself in glory in the recent war. I don't know enough about ME politics to have a considered opinion but, given the historical treatment of Jews, I can understand where its military paranoia comes from, but it doesn't excuse some of their actions which have been unacceptably brutal. But October 7th was horrific and Israel, like any country, has the right to defend itself. I feel sorry for ordinary Palestinians caught in the crossfire when Hamas uses them as human shields. But the idea that Palestine - as a country - is the victim here when it was responsible for one of the most sadistic attacks I've ever had the misfortune to read about is...well, it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious. Hamas are open about their hatred of Israel and their wish to obliterate Jews - this being on top of their political repression and long list of human rights abuses - and yet they are somehow seen as the good guys?

As for the original question of why GC women tend to be seen as pro-Israel, I'd say this is due to two things: 1) anything other than a black-and-white condemnation of Israel/support of Palestine is seen as 'pro-Israel', and 2) we are used to using critical thinking skills to see both sides of a situation and understand there is nuance to almost all situations, much as that doesn't chime with left-wing purity politics.

How can Hamas or Palestinian beliefs create inequalities in Israel?

I support the Palestinian people not Hamas - I think always bringing the argument back to Hamas and what they did/do (which is despicable) is a refusal to acknowledge how awful the situation is now.

I have a lots of respect for people on this board and don’t see any point in arguing with some entrenched views that I disagree with, which aren’t going to change.

My concern for the Palestinian people is motivated neither from a love for Hamas nor a disdain for Israel - it’s care for the normal people caught in the middle who have the right to self determination, health and a stab at happiness just like the rest of us (and that goes for Israelis too)

I don’t comment because feelings run too high and I don’t want to upset people but it doesn’t mean I agree with the posts.

I’m a TERF, and I’m pro-Israel. There are many Muslim countries in the world, but there’s only one Israel. The Temple is significantly older than Christianity or Islam. I’m also passionate about seeing the return of Imperial Iran. Some societies are with us, some are against us.