Why are so many GC women pro-Israel?

[Krakinou]

This is a feminist forum. It’s in the name. I’m a feminist, therefore logically atheist and frankly anti-religion. Certainly against any kind of religious nationalism (Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, etc.)

But surely feminism is about liberation for all women, not just the ones we agree with? The destruction of patriarchal structures, not of women and children who are conditioned by them?

I constantly see snarky comments in GC articles about Gaza and dehumanizing comments about Palestinians and Muslims generally on this board. And minimizing of the suffering of the tens of thousands of people being murdered in an internationally recognized genocide. I don’t get it. It seems out of sync with the general mumsnet feeling too - I get the impression most people on mumsnet are pretty horrified by Israel’s actions.

Does anyone else get the same impression? If so, what is the connection between being Gender Critical and being anti-Palestine? Is it just that the leftist terfs aren’t so represented here?

I’m in a feminist group in Spain and it doesn’t have the same issue at all.

Me, too. Thanks for posting that!

The entire world was appalled by the attack!! I have literally never seen it downplayed or excused in any way.

Do you really think we should now sit back and watch Palestine get all but wiped out off the back of it and not give a shit?!

What is happening in Gaza is the equivalent of the US attempting to eradicate Afghanistan after 9-11.

That wouldn't have been a proportional response, and neither is the reported (from Israeli figures) around 85% civilian deaths in Gaza.

That's the highest percentage of civilian deaths in a war since Rwanda, and we all know what that was!

You want the argument to be black and white, but those civilians are being slaughtered and starved in shades of grey and the World is watching it happen.

The entire world was appalled by the attack!! I have literally never seen it downplayed or excused in any way.

I had the misfortune to see the Edgware Road gathering on the night of 7 October. That was reported as a vigil for Gaza, before any Israeli strikes had happened. The few outlets that covered it made it sound like a sombre gathering for peace.

What I actually saw was a large crowd of young Muslims partying as if their team had just won the World Cup.

There were quite a few people, in the days after the attack, who were bigging it up as a "prison break". And many of us saw Owen Jones' big YouTube opus where he was going through footage of the attack and saying "I see no evidence of any rapes here".

I'm afraid there are quite a few people out there, hiding in plain sight in the Palestine movement, who think the attack was a good thing and would like to see it repeated.

The deaths of women and children is always terrible........but you are aware that Hamas is happy to sacrifice them as martyrs, as this furthers their cause? Leaders have openly spoke about" our women's wombs are our weapons".....and that is why there are still so many babies being born, even in such terrible conditions of war and displacement. You'd think the men would leave the women the fuck alone. But no!

I saw one BBC report, and i'm not sure if it was apparent to many who were watching...but one young woman was clearly being sexually abused by multiple men in the refugee camp.

Regardless of whether you agree with the current tactics being employed by Netanyahu whereby Hamas operatives are targeted, even if it means killing those around them too ( and few people do approve), it has always been apparent that the population of Gaza has actually increased over the years. If Israel really wanted to commit genocide then they are not making a very good job of it.

If Hamas cared about its own people then it would not embed itself amongst civilians; in hospitals, in camps, in schools...in the way that it does. Why do none of the pro - Palestine lot ever talk about Hamas tactics; about the way that Hamas executes its own people; steals food from the aid trucks; acts like a mafia. About the way that Hamas deploys booby traps all over the place, and on a daily baisis continues to fire missiles into Israel?

That wouldn't have been a proportional response, and neither is the reported (from Israeli figures) around 85% civilian deaths in Gaza.
This is typical of the misinformation and propaganda being circulated.
The Israel Data, (which is disputed) states 23% of deaths were named fighters i.e. known and targeted individuals. You cannot assume the rest were 'civilians'. 'Civilians' housed hostages, and are employed as journalists etc by Hamas and are active in hand to hand fighting. It's just their names aren't known.

This.
I was on twitter when the uncensored video, taken by Hamas, of the massacre was being live broadcast and shared. Some popped up on my timeline. I can't unsee that. I know what happened, I believe the witnesses.

Being GC surely means being aware of how the media chooses to amplify some voices and not others, we've seen the BBC, for example, promoting the drag Queen agenda and not reporting on crimes committed by trans activists. Being GC means, for me, taking a critical approach to what I am being fed by mainstream media and needing to do a deep dive into other sources - it means being CRITICAL of all of them and having to make judgments about which to trust and which not to trust. I follow a couple of British ex army officers who are middle east experts and post insightful analysis of what is actually happening on the ground. One is Andrew Fox who says there is absolutely not a genocide being enacted by the Israelis against Gaza "there have been more bombs dropped than people killed" the Israelis are very careful not to harm civilians where possible, it is Hamas who build their bomb launching sites in hospitals.

I also happen to know a fair amount about the history of that region, I recognise the lazy lies being told - I'm old enough to remember all of the attacks on Israel since the 6 day war in '67. I know who attacked who, I watched the Camp David accords with great hope - I had even more hope for the agreement being thrashed out by Bill Clinton in 2000 which gave the Palestinians their own state with the whole of Gaza and the West Bank, part of Israel, and a capital in East Jerusalem - the two state solution everyone is now calling for was there on the table. They walked away. Clinton says he realised they did not want their own state - they wanted the complete extermination of the state of Israel. Hamas is a death cult.

Personally I don’t think you can be a feminist and religious because all of the religions I know of are based around the belief in an omnipotent male creator. Women will never be truly free while they believe they are inferior to men. Which is exactly what an ordained woman is doing.

It’s not meant as an insult and plenty of women I admire and respect are religious.

@Krakinou Are you sure that you are up to date with your understanding of modern teaching from the Anglicans, Free Churches and even the Roman Catholic church. The ordination of women will continue.
Deep thoughts and scholarship has moved on from omnipotence. I have not encountered that in a long time.
There will be fewer dogmatic statements and more about the teaching of Jesus.
I have no knowledge of other religions.

What about religions that don't solely have male deities (either because there is a mix of male and female, or non-gendered deities), such as Hinduism, Jainism and Paganism? Or even Dianistic traditions within Paganism which are goddess-worshipping?

Buddhistm isnt based on an omnipotent deity. Some sects have 'gods' but the Buddha was just a bloke.

Remind me how long it was post October the 7th before the UN acknowledged the rapes of Israeli women?

There were absolutely people celebrating the attacks. Openly.

Five months. It took them five months.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/un-finds-evidence-of-rape-on-oct-7-and-after-israel-they-tried-to-downplay-issue/

'It took about eight weeks for UN Women, a women’s rights group under the tutelage of the UN, to post, and shortly thereafter delete, a condemnation of the October 7 onslaught itself.
Another week would go by before the agency registered the existence of “disturbing reports of gender-based and sexual violence on October 7.”
The delayed response sparked outrage among Jewish and Israeli feminist groups, rallying to the hashtag “#MeTooUNlessURAJew” and charging the UN body’s silence was motivated by antisemitism.'

It's become very difficult not to believe that the modern Left despises, or at the very least doesn't care about, women and Jews.

First-cousin marriage really is more prevalent in Britain's Pakistani-origin community. There's a long-term study Born in Bradford (where just under half of Pakistani-origin women are married to a first or second cousin) which, amongst other things, has turned up the unintended medical and educational consequences of this. The intended social consequence is to reinforce clan bonds, which in turn have political consequences for communities in Britain with a high Pakistani-origin population, especially those from Kashmir, where bloc-voting, organised by community elders (all male, of course) is the norm. I was born in a town which has a large Pakistani-origin population and the political influence of that sector is out of proportion to the percentage of voters involved because a large chunk of votes can be absolutely guaranteed for the favoured candidate once a deal is done.

This isn't scare-mongering; it's a fact of life about those communities. Further, about 75% of the UK population as a whole is against first-cousin marraige.

Funnily enough I’ve noticed this, but from the other side - a lot of TRAs are anti- Israel. Which makes sense to me because it’s about parroting sound bites without questioning their factual accuracy (“genocide”), disregarding facts (October 7th, Hamas blocking food to Gazan citizens) and “being in the right side of history”.

because all of the religions I know of are based around the belief in an omnipotent male creator

Erm no they don't...mainstream Abrahamic ones do not.

I.e. Catholic Catechism "is neither man nor woman: He is God".

I think you are confusing male pronouns with belief in a male creator.

I am GC, a feminist and very anti religious too.

My first thoughts are though, people have the right to religion and express religious freedoms. That is not something shared by extremist ideologists though, especially when it comes to terrorist groups like Hamas. That’s the cross over you are seeing.

I have absolutely no skin in the game on the current war between Isreal and Gaza, it has zero impact on my life whatsoever. However I would be more sympathetic to a society who respects women and treats them equally, than one that promotes women as property and restricts their movement and what they wear.

True feminists centre women first, as an oppressed class of male violence and oppression

There are some A*%#holes on both sides, in neither case does this justify the slaughter of innocent civilians, whether Israelis or Gazans.

I would be really interested to know if anyone on this thread thinks that there is a workable solution out there somewhere and can explain what form it might take.

No I don't. Not one that both sides are happy with. Palestine doesn't want peace. Theyre not going to stop and Israel are never allowed to win even though they could, they dont want to
So it's stalemate.

Well i am "left" and i care a great deal about Palestinian AND Israeli women and children. Hamas in government would be absolutely terrible for the Palestinian people, just as this shit show of an Israeli government is doing fuck all to get the remaining hostages home. I'm not on anyone's side in this disgusting war. As usual, the only people really suffering are women and children, on both sides.

I've never seen a group of Jews or Israel supporters openly celebrating the deaths of Gazans, or a group of gender critical women calling to stab, shoot, hang and set alight trans people who disagree with them.

I always think that if we try to imagine using the same solution as what was done with the creation of Israel for another minority group, all of the potential problems loom very large.

Which they did before WWII. There were those who wanted to create a Jewish state in the ME, some a modern secular state to be a homeland to Jews being persecuted worldwide, including in the ME itself. But also religious Zionists who say it as a religious imperative. But most people involved in such things thought it wasn't ultimately a politically viable solution.

WWII made people feel it had to be done, had to be made to work. I suspect however that the fact is that it was never a viable political project and never will be. Either the Palestinians and other Arabs who don't want them there will prevail and destroy Israel, or Israel will prevail and destroy those people. And either way the ones left standing will be permanently marked and changed by the results of those acts against others.

Hmm, I don't think any of those have moved on from omnipotence. I'm sure actually that they haven't.

But they certainly don't think God is male, that would require having a body.

Either the Palestinians and other Arabs who don't want them there will prevail and destroy Israel, or Israel will prevail and destroy those people.

The Arab nations haven't managed it and several have made peace and no longer wish to, and Israel has never tried.

I am not saying everything Israel does is beyond reproach, but it is the only country in the world expected to endure these sorts of attacks forever and do absolutely nothing about it. For a long time I wondered why this is, but I am starting to conclude that the simplest and most obvious answer really is the correct one.