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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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DCorMe · 29/07/2025 20:21

submissions are still to come which is pulling together the evidence heard and this is where NC (and JR of course) will hammer home their points

ToriaB · 29/07/2025 20:21

Is it possible that the second witness was heard anonymously and in private?

Harassedevictee · 29/07/2025 20:21

I keep reflecting on NCs cross examination of MC it really was a master class. It also drew a clear definition of what is biological sex.

I have always said on FWR that I think the GRA needs revising so it clearly uses gender throughout, has a clear definition of gender (no idea what), have a process for de-transitioners and potentially recognise non-binary,

The EA2010 should define gender identity and add it to the gender reassignment pc. It must make clear gender does not mean sex and that not everyone has a gender/gender identity.

Transgender/gender identity is here to stay, trying to turn back the clock is not realistic. Having a clear distinction between sex and gender in law is about respect for both sides of the argument.

ToriaB · 29/07/2025 20:21

Hence all the case conference time

ToriaB · 29/07/2025 20:24

Harassedevictee · 29/07/2025 20:21

I keep reflecting on NCs cross examination of MC it really was a master class. It also drew a clear definition of what is biological sex.

I have always said on FWR that I think the GRA needs revising so it clearly uses gender throughout, has a clear definition of gender (no idea what), have a process for de-transitioners and potentially recognise non-binary,

The EA2010 should define gender identity and add it to the gender reassignment pc. It must make clear gender does not mean sex and that not everyone has a gender/gender identity.

Transgender/gender identity is here to stay, trying to turn back the clock is not realistic. Having a clear distinction between sex and gender in law is about respect for both sides of the argument.

I don't see the purpose of a rewritten GRA and certainly not of adding gender identity to EA2010. There's no coherent definition of gender that can be used, and no need for someone's "identity" to be part of their official documentation, any more than their favourite colour. All discrimination claims would be covered by sex or disability. It wouldn't pass the Grainger test to be a protected belief.

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 20:28

Although the case has concluded for now on rather a sour note, there are three things I am now aware of that I wasn't back in February:

  1. That under H & S regs, where people are required to change at work, SS is mandated by law.
  2. The Supreme Court has confirmed that Sex always meant biological sex, and that possession of a GRC (which Upton doesn't have) does not override this.
  3. The Forstater judgement states that GC beliefs are WORIADS (which I didn't know either.)

So next time a group of women complain as the Darlington nurses did - they can bring this up immediately in their claim to the authorities and not be fobbed off with " be more inclusive."

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 29/07/2025 20:29

MorrisZapp · 29/07/2025 19:22

It seems wildly unfair to me that private messages were brought into evidence by one side and not the other. I realise this was because the evidence was provided by a witness in the case, but does any sentient observer actually think that DUs WhatsApp isn't a festering pit of nastiness?

If SP were to be barred from practice for private comments then the whole tribunal process is poisoned.

The NMC can be quite strict about such stuff. There is the broad “offence” of not maintaining professionalism. Which can be a catch all.

I don’t know about any qualified staff who have had repercussions for private messages but as a nursing lecturer I have had screenshots of private messages on WhatsApp sent to me which weren’t racist but were mocking particular patients. I came down like a ton of bricks and had them all on fitness to practice hearings. Not sure if a hospital would have dealt with it as a disciplinary matter or an nmc referral.

there have been police officers sacked for WhatsApp “banter “ so it must be possible legally.

the nmc have recently been found to be systemically racist so will be keen to prove otherwise.

Appalonia · 29/07/2025 20:29

BoreOfWhabylon · 29/07/2025 20:04

Thank you @nauticant for these threads. Thanks also to all contributors, especially @BezMills and @prh47bridge.

For nghtowls with an appetite for further courtroom drama, Tickle v Giggle is livestreaming next week on the Federal Court of Australia Youtube channel.

Is there a thread about this?

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 20:32

the nmc have recently been found to be systemically racist so will be keen to prove otherwise.

So will they go after all those in the Benidorm WhatsApp group or just Sandie Peggie?

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 20:33

@Boiledbeetle I tried giant couscous the other day. I was surprised how unlike normal, blgggghh, couscous it was.

How very dare you! As our national dish, I will not have a word said against couscous.

You philistines clearly just don't know how to prepare it

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 29/07/2025 20:39

Well ChatGPT are still predicting a win for Peggie even taking into account the racist jokes.

They estimate compensation between 100-200k as long as loss of future earnings is granted. Without that then likely to be between 50-100k.

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 29/07/2025 20:39

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 20:32

the nmc have recently been found to be systemically racist so will be keen to prove otherwise.

So will they go after all those in the Benidorm WhatsApp group or just Sandie Peggie?

lets just say I’d be nervous if I’d been in that group chat.

Igneococcus · 29/07/2025 20:41

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 20:33

@Boiledbeetle I tried giant couscous the other day. I was surprised how unlike normal, blgggghh, couscous it was.

How very dare you! As our national dish, I will not have a word said against couscous.

You philistines clearly just don't know how to prepare it

I make this soup with giant couscous, I add a bit more ginger ad also some coriander seeds, massive family favourite. I have to make it every time dd comes home.
https://www.mymoroccanfood.com/home/berkoukech-soup-mhamsa

Berkoukech Soup (Mhamsa) — My Moroccan Food

Berkoukech is a simple and earthy soup, it's full of flavours and perfect for the current chilly winter evenings. This soup is a traditional North African berber dish. It is commonly prepared with giant couscous grains similar to pearl pasta, it also...

https://www.mymoroccanfood.com/home/berkoukech-soup-mhamsa

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 20:41

They estimate compensation between 100-200k as long as loss of future earnings is granted. Without that then likely to be between 50-100k.

What about loss of pension contributions?

kneady · 29/07/2025 20:44

I worked in a factory for years and heard much more "offensive" banter than what was revealed in that whatsapp chat. It's not a big deal. So what that it doesn't appeal to middle class sensibilities. Stop demonising her just because she cracked a few dark humour jokes and called a weirdo a weirdo.

Jerabilis · 29/07/2025 20:47

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 29/07/2025 20:29

The NMC can be quite strict about such stuff. There is the broad “offence” of not maintaining professionalism. Which can be a catch all.

I don’t know about any qualified staff who have had repercussions for private messages but as a nursing lecturer I have had screenshots of private messages on WhatsApp sent to me which weren’t racist but were mocking particular patients. I came down like a ton of bricks and had them all on fitness to practice hearings. Not sure if a hospital would have dealt with it as a disciplinary matter or an nmc referral.

there have been police officers sacked for WhatsApp “banter “ so it must be possible legally.

the nmc have recently been found to be systemically racist so will be keen to prove otherwise.

Yes, I'd assume LN is most likely of all of them to be in trouble with the NMC - surely naming patients and their conditions is worse than borderline jokes.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 29/07/2025 20:48

RabbitFurCoat · 29/07/2025 19:57

Thanks so much @nauticant for the continued thread management. I'm off - I don't think much more can be gained until they come back in Dec, now. Thanks also Bez for your inventive humour, and the stalwarts providing illustrations and levity, and to posters for the recipes and skinting me with book recs! Interestingly my SIL just saw a post about this on FB and many people are making the point in comments that the racism unearthed is unrelated to men in women's spaces. I don't think anyone will be jumping ship to opposite sides off the back of this tribunal. Thanks folks. (And sorry again for the Frankie Boyle yoga mental images.)

The oral submissions will be on September 1st and 2nd. The judgement seems likely to be early next year, but could be this year.

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 20:49

I can't believe some people are saying that she'll never get a job again anywhere, not just in the NHS.
As if she's the only person in the UK to have shared racist jokes or used questionable language.
To suggest she's unemployable and will never work again is one of this biggest exaggerations I've seen to date. Some people need to calm down.

A senior member of staff where I worked was involved in something worse, obtained a criminal record and it was in national newspapers. Guess what, he was referred to the NMC, given a brief suspension and a few months later, not only back in his job but promoted shortly afterwards.

I'd be more concerned about that nurse Lindsay spreading my name around and blabbing about my medical conditions.

FaithHopeCarnage · 29/07/2025 20:52

No Michael Foran tonight, he rather understandably needs a rest! He’ll be live tomorrow.

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 20:54

Igneococcus · 29/07/2025 20:41

I make this soup with giant couscous, I add a bit more ginger ad also some coriander seeds, massive family favourite. I have to make it every time dd comes home.
https://www.mymoroccanfood.com/home/berkoukech-soup-mhamsa

One of my personal favourites ❤️

https://www.deliciousmagazine.co.uk/recipes/lamb-and-date-tagine-with-pomegranate-couscous/

UpDo · 29/07/2025 21:00

Jerabilis · 29/07/2025 20:47

Yes, I'd assume LN is most likely of all of them to be in trouble with the NMC - surely naming patients and their conditions is worse than borderline jokes.

Especially as she liked the joke anyway, so she's ticking two boxes.

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 21:00

What am I going to do tomorrow? Am I actually going to have to do all those things I've spent the last couple of weeks ignoring?

I'm going to feel like I've gone cold turkey.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48
Appalonia · 29/07/2025 21:01

Like some others I do feel a bit deflated by how this case has gone this week. However on a more positive note, I'd like to say what a fantastic experience it has been, being in this thread. I'm hugely grateful to everyone who has contributed. To those reporting live, sharing TT, sharing links to the live blogs, sharing share tokens to newspaper articles, to the legal and feminist analyses, the recipes, poems, humour, cartoons etc. It has felt like a real community of women ( and men ), all working together, helping each other to understand this hugely significant case. So please let's not forget that, it's a real achievement and has made me feel very grateful and proud to be part of such an incredible group of people.

and of course, a MASSIVE thanks to @nauticant 😬 for her absolutely tireless work in keeping it all going!

anyolddinosaur · 29/07/2025 21:10

@nauticant thanks for the thread and not sticking to the 30 minutes - been out all day and having to skim read.

I'd hope the NMC would go on actions not words. The NHS can ill afford to lose a nurse who in 30 years of service had one complaint, about being too strict with a (possibly inadequate) trainee. Her willingness to work weekend nights mean they really cant afford to lose her. If I lived in Fife I'd want an efficient nurse running the a&e on weekend nights and wouldnt give a fuck about her private opinions as long as it didnt affect my treatment. No evidence her opinions have affected the treatment of patients or of Upton. She tried to avoid the changing room when he was there, called him Beth and tried to say her. The idea that she was lying in wait for him Christmas Eve when she was mid shift is laughable. She didnt object to anyone else using the changing room so the bigot argument shouldnt run.

NHS Fife should be in special measures. They have no idea of proper process or the law and are all about the trans rather than patient safety or racist attitudes among staff. The decision to defend this tribunal was a serious waste of public money.

Upton amended his "contemporaneous" notes. He was encouraged to sex up a few hurty words into something far more serious that he could not substantiate. He was badly failed and should have been told to find a spine or another specialty. But he didnt have to go along with this and backtrack/ lie under oath. He's an untrustworthy witness and there are serious concerns about patient consent and potential assault. He should find it difficult to get another post.

Dr Searle failed miserably as a supervisor. She and Jamie Doyle encouraged a shit show, I hope they pay a penalty but really doubt it.

JR has been throwing Fife under a stream of buses to save the career of one deluded man. JR may also be guilty of not being clear about the reputational damage to Fife from the start. Regardless of how many glowing things she has on her cv if I was an employer I would not want her representing me in this sort of case. Her time wasting, insults to Naomi and childish behaviour over names in this case should be reported to the Bar Standards Board. Maybe she was not entirely responsible for Fife's failure to disclose but disclosures conveniently turned up rather late when they were produced. I noted the attempts to see this was because the claimants specified not admin stuff, clearly a lot of important disclosures came late.

Naomi doesnt labour points the Tribunal can see clearly themselves. The submissions will be interesting.

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