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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

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30
borntobequiet · 29/07/2025 19:36

borntobequiet · 29/07/2025 18:59

From the article:

She was also asked about looking up policies related to menstrual health in the workplace

What an unusual thing for a woman in her early fifties to do. Smoking gun!

I think a couple of people missed the sarcasm in my post above.

Jellycatspyjamas · 29/07/2025 19:38

Fair enough @borntobequiet my sarcasm monitor has exploded over the course of the last week.

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 19:39

BTW can I add that as soon as I heard that Upton was stripped down to his bra in the Changing room, it convinced me that he was a man with a fetish, and got a sexual thrill out of it.

UpDo · 29/07/2025 19:45

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 19:39

BTW can I add that as soon as I heard that Upton was stripped down to his bra in the Changing room, it convinced me that he was a man with a fetish, and got a sexual thrill out of it.

It was a horrifying thought.

BellissimoGecko · 29/07/2025 19:48

Forgetsheepcountducklings · 29/07/2025 19:07

I haven't been able to follow today but I'm confused - I thought there were meant to be x2 new witnesses supportive to Sandie. A supportive member of the group chat and someone else who is concerned about the atmosphere at NHS Fife? I can't see any references to the first one and the second one now seems to be a Sex Matters employee who took the call - did the witnesses both bow out in the end?

Grateful if someone could catch me up!

I came in to ask this! Please can anyone answer this?

FancyLimePoet · 29/07/2025 19:49

SirChenjins · 29/07/2025 18:37

I imagine that the NMC and the GMC are going to be very busy looking at a few people as a result of this shitshow.

About JR and the mixing up of names, did she not call Isla Bumba Isla Bryson ? Why is she doing this ?

Firealarms · 29/07/2025 19:49

PollyNomial · 29/07/2025 18:19

SP may well win but I find it inconceivable she won't be struck off by the NMC after these comments. Talk about a pyrrhic victory...

To be honest, many people who take their employer to tribunal might struggle to find work afterwards, particularly if it’s a public case like this.

However in SP’s case in particular, I agree that she has no career left within the NHS now. But additionally I think she’d struggle to find a job outside the NHS. Unless Sex Matters or a similar organisation would take her on to further their cause & help others.

Firealarms · 29/07/2025 19:50

BellissimoGecko · 29/07/2025 19:48

I came in to ask this! Please can anyone answer this?

Well it seems one of them pulled out (group chat witness). The other one was always anonymous, so that evidence went ahead as planned (via the sex matters employee).

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 19:54

Well it seems one of them pulled out (group chat witbess). The other one was always anonymous, so that evidence went ahead as planned (via the sex matters employee).

I wonder if that was the overnight development. I don't suppose we will ever know.

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 29/07/2025 19:55

Still catching up, miles behind.

But to answer a question from last thread, yes there was a joke about the Dunblane shooting which I can remember which did the rounds not long after the shooting happened.

I agree with the poster who said no tragedy is immune.

There was some talk about this in the last thread (or the one before?), I thought it was fairly common knowledge that a lot of jobs that see the worst moments of life, like emergency services, have all sorts of coping mechanisms and that often dark humour was one of them.

Thanks to @nauticant, @Justabaker and the TT team, @MarieDeGournay and @GinaWhoLikesADrink who reminds me of RealFemanist, you are very funny! clinks glass against yours🍸😂

Mmmnotsure · 29/07/2025 19:55

BellissimoGecko · 29/07/2025 19:48

I came in to ask this! Please can anyone answer this?

I think we were expecting two witnesses:

one from Sex Matters who took a call from someone at the hospital concerned about the situation at the hospital and how the hospital were managing things. That witness was called Emma [Emma was the SMatters person, talking about the anonymous caller] and she gave evidence via CVP

the other was someone who was part of the group chat with SP. It looks as though she bailed (the Judge/counsel left at the end of the morning session to discuss and there was also a meeting at the start of the afternoon session but we were given no information about those).

I can't imagine how Sandie would have felt given that her 'friend' had not turned up in the end. Obviously I don't know what the back story was or the meetings, but my hunch was that it affected SP for the afternoon's evidence.

[Edited to make clear re the anon caller.]

BessieSurtees · 29/07/2025 19:57

Binman · Today 18:08

This character assassination is one of the many reasons why women do not complain or challenge in the workplace. There are very few of us with flawless lives and backgrounds. I suspect some mud could be dug up on most of us which could cause us distress if read out in open court in a hostile environment.
How many sexual assaults and rapes go unreported due to the fear of not being believed or degraded in court. How many women do not challenge their employer for fear of being disciplined?
I am not an active feminist and most of my friendship circle have never heard of this case or deal with these situations in their life. However I applaud Sandi Peggie, whether her past makes me uncomfortable, whether she is not really that nice a person to know I am grateful that she was prepared to take this all of the way.
It is not without risk, she has been demoralised and disrespected and we cannot know how this has affected her health. I hope she is vindicated and I hope that her experience gives women the courage to speak out rather than be more afraid to.

Catching up on the end of the previous thread and start of this one. I think the way the worm has turned, even on this thread today, reflects this post about the consequences of women standing up only to be shot down

RabbitFurCoat · 29/07/2025 19:57

Thanks so much @nauticant for the continued thread management. I'm off - I don't think much more can be gained until they come back in Dec, now. Thanks also Bez for your inventive humour, and the stalwarts providing illustrations and levity, and to posters for the recipes and skinting me with book recs! Interestingly my SIL just saw a post about this on FB and many people are making the point in comments that the racism unearthed is unrelated to men in women's spaces. I don't think anyone will be jumping ship to opposite sides off the back of this tribunal. Thanks folks. (And sorry again for the Frankie Boyle yoga mental images.)

BoreOfWhabylon · 29/07/2025 20:04

Thank you @nauticant for these threads. Thanks also to all contributors, especially @BezMills and @prh47bridge.

For nghtowls with an appetite for further courtroom drama, Tickle v Giggle is livestreaming next week on the Federal Court of Australia Youtube channel.

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 20:05

GinaWhoLikesADrink · 29/07/2025 19:22

Lins, do you not think you should stop fishing for gossip now? You've already dropped Sandie in it, and look how that's turned out for you. If you're gonna start on me, remember I've got the Benidorm chat saved too.

😱😳😢🤐🍷

Harassedevictee · 29/07/2025 20:06

Forgetsheepcountducklings · 29/07/2025 19:07

I haven't been able to follow today but I'm confused - I thought there were meant to be x2 new witnesses supportive to Sandie. A supportive member of the group chat and someone else who is concerned about the atmosphere at NHS Fife? I can't see any references to the first one and the second one now seems to be a Sex Matters employee who took the call - did the witnesses both bow out in the end?

Grateful if someone could catch me up!

There were due to be two witnesses one from Sex Matters and one from the Benidorm Group. There was a closed case conference after the Sex Matters witness and we don’t know what was discussed other than something that arose overnight.

The Benidorm Group witness did not appear we don’t know why.

NeverOneBiscuit · 29/07/2025 20:08

In common with many others on this thread I’ve been dismayed by some of Sandie’s comments. It never fails to amaze me though how men claiming to be women have become such a sacred caste.

They’re treated like vulnerable china dolls, whose every whim & desire must be accommodated, including at the expense of other pcs.

Those (usually women) who dare to remind people that we’re talking about men in women’s spaces, are treated like heretics, and dirty minded troublemakers. Listening to medical professionals in this case talking absolute nonsense about the reality of biological sex has shown the complete institutional capture.

Any woman not bowing & scraping to the TWAW ideology is immediately treated like a monster, for upsetting the sad men in dresses. The TRAs, handmaidens & captured cowards would have held Sandie in contempt whatever her views in other areas.

I’m actually more contemptuous of men dressing in a regressive stereotypical feminine way, as part of their act to pretend they’re a woman. For what it’s worth I do think some of them are weird and strange, based on their words & actions. To knowingly enter a female only space as a male, with the certainty that many of the women will not want you there, but are too afraid to say ‘No’ is revolting.

They’re men, not transwomen, or trans identified men, just plain men. Take off the wig, heels, make up & empty bra, stop with the incorrect pronouns & made up words that suggest men are ever any type of woman.

ThatCyanCat · 29/07/2025 20:08

borntobequiet · 29/07/2025 18:59

From the article:

She was also asked about looking up policies related to menstrual health in the workplace

What an unusual thing for a woman in her early fifties to do. Smoking gun!

I experienced menstrual flooding after one of my miscarriages. I looked this up at work too for obvious reasons. I know JR had to try to discredit evidence for the claimant, it's her job, and it shouldn't be taken personally, but I still say she can fuck right off.

Meceme · 29/07/2025 20:14

borntobequiet · 29/07/2025 19:36

I think a couple of people missed the sarcasm in my post above.

You're right. I completely missed the sarcasm and took you seriously, mea culpa.
I'm too used to being on the defensive, 🙄 and sometimes overreact.

RoyalCorgi · 29/07/2025 20:14

A few thoughts:

  1. Clearly the revelations about Sandie's racist comments are quite disappointing, especially coming at the end after several weeks in which Sandie had seemed like a beacon of sanity and courage in comparison to the cowardly, lying bullies in management at NHS Fife.
  2. I don't suppose there'll now be a dramatisation of the case, which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to it.
  3. Nonetheless the fact that Sandie has some unsavoury attitudes is completely irrelevant to the matter at the heart of this case, which is that NHS Fife breached workplace regulations by allowing a man into the women's changing room, and having done that, had the audacity to suspend Sandie for challenging their decision. And didn't even bother to follow due process in doing so.
  4. What is the logic of NHS Fife's argument? "Women who have racist attitudes deserve to be punished by being forced to undress in front of a man?" I can't find the bit of the law where it says this - perhaps Jane Russell could direct me.
  5. I cannot fathom why the judge allowed this line of argument - about Sandie's racist comments - to be heard. What is it supposed to add to the case?
  6. Given that NHS Fife is supposed to be so hot on diversity and equality, why didn't they act on Sandie's alleged racism earlier? Why wait till now to bring it up? It doesn't reflect well on their own internal processes.
  7. I am worried that in all the back-and-forth about who said and did what to whom that the very simple issue of NHS Fife breaking the law is forgotten about. Much as I admire Naomi Cunningham, I feel she could have hammered home this point more than she did. And I worry about whether the judge has completely understood that this is the core of the issue.
BellissimoGecko · 29/07/2025 20:15

Mmmnotsure · 29/07/2025 19:55

I think we were expecting two witnesses:

one from Sex Matters who took a call from someone at the hospital concerned about the situation at the hospital and how the hospital were managing things. That witness was called Emma [Emma was the SMatters person, talking about the anonymous caller] and she gave evidence via CVP

the other was someone who was part of the group chat with SP. It looks as though she bailed (the Judge/counsel left at the end of the morning session to discuss and there was also a meeting at the start of the afternoon session but we were given no information about those).

I can't imagine how Sandie would have felt given that her 'friend' had not turned up in the end. Obviously I don't know what the back story was or the meetings, but my hunch was that it affected SP for the afternoon's evidence.

[Edited to make clear re the anon caller.]

Edited

Thank you.

oh dear.

Llamasarellovely · 29/07/2025 20:17

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 19:39

BTW can I add that as soon as I heard that Upton was stripped down to his bra in the Changing room, it convinced me that he was a man with a fetish, and got a sexual thrill out of it.

Oh absolutely. Fully deserving the Weirdo epithet.

ThatCyanCat · 29/07/2025 20:18

RoyalCorgi · 29/07/2025 20:14

A few thoughts:

  1. Clearly the revelations about Sandie's racist comments are quite disappointing, especially coming at the end after several weeks in which Sandie had seemed like a beacon of sanity and courage in comparison to the cowardly, lying bullies in management at NHS Fife.
  2. I don't suppose there'll now be a dramatisation of the case, which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to it.
  3. Nonetheless the fact that Sandie has some unsavoury attitudes is completely irrelevant to the matter at the heart of this case, which is that NHS Fife breached workplace regulations by allowing a man into the women's changing room, and having done that, had the audacity to suspend Sandie for challenging their decision. And didn't even bother to follow due process in doing so.
  4. What is the logic of NHS Fife's argument? "Women who have racist attitudes deserve to be punished by being forced to undress in front of a man?" I can't find the bit of the law where it says this - perhaps Jane Russell could direct me.
  5. I cannot fathom why the judge allowed this line of argument - about Sandie's racist comments - to be heard. What is it supposed to add to the case?
  6. Given that NHS Fife is supposed to be so hot on diversity and equality, why didn't they act on Sandie's alleged racism earlier? Why wait till now to bring it up? It doesn't reflect well on their own internal processes.
  7. I am worried that in all the back-and-forth about who said and did what to whom that the very simple issue of NHS Fife breaking the law is forgotten about. Much as I admire Naomi Cunningham, I feel she could have hammered home this point more than she did. And I worry about whether the judge has completely understood that this is the core of the issue.

It might be forgotten by the media and public but the judge will not be so easily swayed. I couldn't presume what the judgement will be but I do trust it won't be influenced by dramatics or the fucking British Bullshit Corporation.

NigelPonsonbySmallpiece · 29/07/2025 20:18

SirChenjins · 29/07/2025 18:37

I imagine that the NMC and the GMC are going to be very busy looking at a few people as a result of this shitshow.

Agree. The nmc anyway. Gmc will close ranks

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 20:20

I'm a bit shocked at Lindsay (NOT ME GINA I SWEAR) and the patient's name and details thing... does go to show that they all thought the group chat was totally safe and private.

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