NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

I am so grateful to all those who have kept these threads going
@nauticant @Boiledbeetle Bez

Arrgh MN won't let me @ anyone else, but you know who you are.

Thank you!

And despite the smear campaign, Sandie Peggie you are a Queen!

What is the logic of NHS Fife's argument? "Women who have racist attitudes deserve to be punished by being forced to undress in front of a man?" I can't find the bit of the law where it says this - perhaps Jane Russell could direct me.

I think that's basically it. It has absolutely no relevance otherwise.

I'm confused actually by LN's involvement here, or maybe I just haven't been paying close enough attention. She was in the chat, left it but screenshotted the racist jokes - is that right? Why would she do that? What was the timing of her leaving the group? Before or after the first round of the tribunal? Did she take the screenshots as evidence in order to put the boot in?

@thenoisiesttermagant
"You can't go to court if you don't have extreme amounts of cash (as has been evidenced by the crowdfunders). JKR has commented on the classism at play here too."

Yes, JKR is right, and it's disgusting that Jane Russell questioned how Sandie was managing to fund her case.

https://nitter.net/jk_rowling/status/1950230950908215312#m

The classism is also at play with the attempts to smear Sandie as a racist. I know some on MN condemn her for the P* jokes etc, and like to feel morally superior. But the other nurses in the Benidorm group posted LMAO emojis, and literally millions of people feel like Sandie about 'illegal' immigrants, and it's one of the reasons Trump won the election. (Another reason is that he knew that millions disagree with trans-woo; only the elite-left understand and the rest of us are fascist bigots).

Returning to racism, I am a white GenX woman, and although I wouldn't make P* jokes to amuse friends, I do sometimes have racist thoughts, because you can't police your own thoughts, - thoughts happen - you can only keep your mouth shut.

For example, if I see a woman in full burkha with sunglasses so you can't see an inch of skin or her eyes, I may think to myself negative things about such a culture. I really doubt that I'm in a minority in having such thoughts.

Sandie has, we are told, an unblemished 30 year history as a nurse. It's clear that she is hardworking and dedicated to her job. You don't choose to be a nurse unless you really care about people. I'm sure that her private 'racist' views never once negatively affected her treatment of patients or colleagues.

You’re comparing apples with oranges. Afaik factory workers aren’t held to a nationally agreed code of conduct. Nursing can be super strict about stuff like this.

Many years ago someone tagged me in a photo on a hens night where I had a glass of wine in one hand and a pair of edible knickers in another and I was reported to my manager and told to remove it or I’d be in trouble. Same manager also threatened to report me to the nmc for unpaid parking tickets.

We are on a professional register and can be struck off and we don’t have to have broken the law to be struck off. If I got a speeding ticket I am supposed to tell my boss. If I was filmed and put on social media having an argument with someone in the street I could be reported to the nmc.

Apologies.

It's the texture of the small stuff. I just can't cope with the texture. The giant one though... Do they do something different to it? I shall put it on my list of things to google.

It could have been and I don't think we're necessarily entitled to know, even though curiosity is eating away at me. It could be that the witness has had an unforseen urgent or medical event, or it could be that they've knowingly or unknowingly become privy to parts of the tribunal they should not in order to remain a reliable witness and so have pulled out in the name of transparency. We could speculate all night but I'm sure there must be a good reason for it.

I am more disappointed that the judge allowed JR an uneven amount of airtime, and feel very much like her lines of questioning were mostly fillibustering. That time could have been used for more effective questioning, even if the goal for JR was to highlight that SP is less than angelic in her personal and political opinions. I imagine Big Sond has gone home and run himself the mother of all radox baths.

Agreed

Jane Russell KC's background. She's married to an Earl, and he's pro-trans.

https://archive.ph/pr1jL

No Michael Foran tonight, he rather understandably needs a rest! He’ll be live tomorrow.
There's a lovely picture on x of him and other SP supporters applauding her as she came out of court.

Agreed, I'm not a nurse, but I am in a related profession with a code of conduct, and people can and do get struck off or otherwise sanctioned for things that have nothing to do with work but indicate something about your character/behaviour.

Plenty of doctors/nurses get struck off for comments on social media platforms that are seen as "bringing the profession into disrepute" amongst other things.

Also, while these comments may not have changed how SP behaves, knowledge of them may prevent some from seeking necessary treatment because of how they fear they would be treated (similar to those who don't want a male mammographer). That's not a sustainable position.

It's not very long ago that a man being in the women's changing rooms would cause uproar. He'd be reported, turfed out by security or the police and referred to as that filthy pervert or that kinky weirdo.

Now, a man is told he has rights to be there, even stripped down to the women's underwear that he wears and that women are expected to take their clothes off in front of him without complaint!

It's quite astonishing how women have had our rights to privacy, safety and dignity STOLEN by men without our consultation or consent. If we dare to challenge this intolerable situation, we're bigots and our personal lives will be raked over for every awful thing we've ever said or done and we'll be publicly shamed for our sins. No woman will ever be permitted to refuse to submit to the superior rights of men to parade whatever gender identity, kink or fetish they wish to push in our faces while they fulfil their voyeuristic desires.

If Nurse Peggie with her 30 year unblemished record of public service falls at the last hurdle due to her outdated racist language (expressed in private), heaven help any other women brave enough to speak out. What would their private messages reveal about them that they'd rather keep out of the newspapers? Tax avoidance? Affairs? Lies? Enjoying a drink? Be warned sisters - we might win this battle eventually but more than one woman's life will be trashed along the way...

It’s not just about racism though, it’ll be about risk to reputation having someone in such a high profile case on your staff team. Rightly or wrongly she’ll be viewed as a “difficult” hire - not because I think she’s a difficult person but the level of discourse on all sides of the debate will mean people will hold a view of her. It’s not unheard of for an ET to be career ending.

In terms of high profile, controversial characters, the most recent example I can think of is Tommy Sheridan - after a career in politics and a prison sentence for perjury he trained as a social worker but very publicly can’t get a job. There’s an argument he should never have been allowed to train but having trained and been accepted on the register, and given the shortage of social workers, he should be able to get a job but at least one employer has told him to stop applying because they won’t hire him.

Surely all the members of that WhatsApp group would then be candidates for investigation and being struck off, if they shared/laughed at the stuff that incriminated SP?

Agree giant cous cous is much nicer, not sure what they do differently?

Also want to thank everyone for these incredible threads. I've learnt loads, as always, and it's been great going through this together. It's certainly been a rollercoaster, and I can't believe there was a time, long ago, when I thought the celery chat would be the most controversial thing here! Nevertheless, we all deserve access to single sex spaces when we need them and I hope this case will help make that more of a reality. Lots of people have referenced their Mums one way or another in these threads and I often think of my lovely, and now quite confused and very vulnerable, Mum in all this. Thanks to Sandie for standing up for my Mum and for all of us.

Yes. Potentially. I’ve struggled to keep up with everything to be honest on these threads so have seen reference to some of the jokes Peggie sent but not much about what others in the chat sent or said. Someone might get away with a laughing response and blame fat thumbs, inadvertent press when scrolling, etc.

That goes a long way to explaining her obvious class based bigotry. How dare a working class woman find the funds to be able to defend herself in court!! That’s only for the lofty posh!!

Yes, exactly.

💯this. It's been an education and a pleasure! 😀

Name changed but long time lurker.

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Really?

I swear I've never heard a Dunblane joke.
I was at the football probably the Saturday after it, a minute silence was held, there was grown men wiping tears away. Dunblane was horrific

BTW I've never heard a joke about the Southport girls either.

Looking at it from her (LN) point of view, I don't get it. Surely she's well and truly landed herself in it. Could she have been promised clemency? Is that even feasible?

Yes there were definitely Dunblane jokes doing the rounds.

And a friend had just moved to Lockerbie when the plane crash happened and I vividly remember loads of jokes being made.

If the NMC are going to start banning nurses who make private off-colour jokes about protected characteristics then there will be a lot of ‘trans allies’ needing banning. Plus you will get into a right mess with religion where it is generally believed that only one religion will save you and others will end up in hell. Not to mention that many religions disapprove of homosexuality. Then there are all those progress pride flags and lanyards…

Well I don't know.

The public are fickle.

Does no one remember Jade Goody. Very publicly racist and went on to become the nations sweetheart?

Before anyone says that was because of her cancer, she was already well-liked by many before her diagnosis.

And jade was just a 'tv personality' she didn't have the fact she'd.been a dedicated nurse for decades in her favour.

Edited to add- if in healthcare she struggled to get hired, it's inconceivable she wouldn't find employment elsewhere.