NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

This makes me think of Captain Oates stepping out into an Antarctic blizzard and saying that to his companions. Another hero.
Thanks for all you do with the threads.

For goodness sake! This was supposed to be a reply to @nauticant 's continuation post!

So my post has been deleted as I outlined my beliefs about men who 'believe' they are women No doubt I wasn't kind enough or respectful of the special feelings of a certain group of men. Yup.

@WearyAuldWumman yeah Markinch/Thornton/Glenrothes have already gone that way. They have one live service on Sunday between them and rotate it round the different churches. There's also a webcast for people that have trouble getting to the live one. Sorry, everybody else, a bit of a tangent!

With reference to earlier posts about mental health issues in young people, I saw a young person on the train earlier this week who may be part of that group. I heard his voice before he sat near me.

Dressed in a skirt and tights, made up, with long hair, I have no idea if he considered himself to be a woman. The voice, body shape and very obvious shadow on his jawline said 'man'. My initial thought was sadness, I wonder if his struggles as a TW will be worth it.

I'm not sticking around to continue posting after so many days glued to my sofa & laptop so don't hurry back to me, but I'm glad SP has shown us a dark underbelly. If she wins, it reinforces that even people we don't like have rights that are enforceable under the law.

I take your point that women’s rights belong to all of us no matter our views but I am uncomfortable with the interpretation that “we” don’t like Sandie Peggie (which I appreciate might be just my take) I have never met the woman and I have no idea if I would like her or not. It would appear I have different views to her on somethings, but as I have never met anyone I agreed with on every single subject and issue that’s not a surprise. I imagine the snap shot we have seen is a very incomplete picture of the whole person, however it does also appear to include considerable more bravery and tenacity than I have, a loving and loved wife, mother and daughter, crap taste in friends, hard working and conscientious nurse and some one straight, forward, down to earth and honest. She is almost certainly not perfect, are you? But I couldn’t condemn anyone as unlikable on such a limited view.

@BeLemonNow I wouldn't have thought GC people are more likely to be homophobic, racist or anything else.

Dressed in a skirt and tights, made up, with long hair, I have no idea if he considered himself to be a woman. The voice, body shape and very obvious shadow on his jawline said 'man'. My initial thought was sadness, I wonder if his struggles as a TW will be worth it.

Same with a person we had dealings with at work. We could use his name, but it would have been hard to accept him as a woman, but he didn't want to be treated as a man. We felt a bit sorry for him and wondered what place he would find in society. But this was long before this TWAW kicked off.

If a dementia patient noticed he was a man and called him “son”, I think that says it all about what he looks like.

Thanks. Having just had a wander around Twitter to see what happened, I could hazard a good guess as to who that person is. Extraordinary and sad how some people routinely make the best the enemy of the good in their aims and ambitions.

I don't know, I suppose you could do some sort of survey. I don't like to believe things without empirical evidence one way or the other.

One of the arguments is that TRAs use is that those who are generally opposed to substantial changes in society or look down on others who have different lifestyles are likely to be generally phobic and so transphobic. I don't know, it is an empirical question.

It's also not a separate question as TRAs imo "use" racism to get people on their side so people who see anti racism as a strong part of their identity are probably more likely to support TRAs without considering whether the arguments are valid.

Hope that makes sense.

My understanding is that she and Earl Russell have daughters who therefore can't inherit the title. WOnder if there was a hope that if trans rights became more mainstream they could argue that the law against trans id daughters inheriting needed repealing?

Excellent news: FWS have been allowed to become an intervenor in this case (by written submission only)

forwomen.scot/31/07/2025/employment-tribunal-intervention-peggie/

I think I was deleted for being rude in the way I told 'someone' to buzz off.

But apparently slinging out accusations of racism is just fine.

Good to know. 👌

I've often wondered how women who are TRAs reach that place in their minds, that gives them the TWAW mantra. What thought process would lead to this?
One can be a supporter of all human rights without this.
Women and girls the world over are the most vulnerable and marginalised group; why is it so hard to acknowledge this?

I'd also love love love! someone to tell me which of the rights have transpeople lost? This burning question never has been satisfactorily answered has it? Did I miss it?

Ooofff

That's hard hitting.

Sex is law is not contentious. It is a settled matter and it's not for this court to undermine the ruling of a higher court.

That is strong, but accurate. Hard to ignore.

I once got deleted for pointing out (accurately) that a poster had a habit of going on threads where people had problems with their car and criticising their choice of car. When I complained about the deletion, I was told this was a personal attack. However, when I complained about a poster on another thread who wrongly claimed that I supported section 48, supported the sale of state schools and wanted free education ended, I was told this was not a personal attack, just acceptable debate. I have minimal experience of Mumsnet's moderation - as far as I know, I have only had two posts deleted - but I don't think it is consistent. However, this is off topic for this thread.

It does make sense, yes.
TRAs are slow to recognise their own ingrained racist assumptions.
We see on here how they like to put feminists in a box (surprise surprise) of being white, as they assume.
As if women of colour and different heritage could not be gender critical.
It's really insulting. But not surprising.

Very late to reply (this thread is massive aand I am trying to read it all) but I really do feel a bit iffy about this.

Tangfastic
"I’ve never met a woman, trans or otherwise who has had a negative experience with trans women"

You have of course never met me, but I am here to tell you that since the early 1970s I have known, socialised with, and been happy to invite to my home on exactly the same basis as anyone whether straight, gay, lesbian, black, white or etc, many trans people. Many as in "more than ten, fewer than fifty".

There have only ever been two people I have disinvited: one because I was told by several people from various of the categories listed above that if that person was coming to an occasion then they would not be, because of that person's horrible behaviour, temper and entitledness in general, and one because of lying to and about me and making a completely unfounded and wild accusation against me.

I'm sure it is entirely coincidence that both are MtF trans.

Can someone explain what an that means?

There is nothing the TRA's wouldn't appropriate. They would colonise a dead body if they thought it would further their aims.

Every group they have attached themselves to, has protested the forced teaming, they don't care.

A fair few dead, usually iirc, women have been posthumously transed.

Sorry I mean - what does it mean for Sandie and the ET?

Much enhanced AI Music version of 🎵 "The Ballad of Sandie Peggie" 🎶

This rocks!!

No real vocalists or musicians were harmed in the making of this - only the lyrics were created by a purely human hand and brain!

The Ballad of Sandie Peggie (Arrangement Suno AI)

If you are not on YouTube . . .

X
https://x.com/POWLizPanton/status/1950644696427974930

Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/liz.panton/videos/1106876694872581

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5383443-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-49