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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

OP posts:
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30
musicalfrog · 29/07/2025 22:21

Frankly I'm more disappointed by the attempted character assassination than by anything Sandie may have said or done. They really are playing dirty tricks now. Low.

Thanks all for the threads and sorry for not being more active - summer holidays have a lot to answer for!

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:21

ExitPursuedByABare · 29/07/2025 22:19

It did all seem a bit of a damp squib this afternoon.

Pretentious I am, yes but reminded me of the Hollow Man quote

"This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper"

And most of them seemed pretty hollow.

Rhaidimiddim · 29/07/2025 22:25

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 21:43

If the NMC are going to start banning nurses who make private off-colour jokes about protected characteristics then there will be a lot of ‘trans allies’ needing banning. Plus you will get into a right mess with religion where it is generally believed that only one religion will save you and others will end up in hell. Not to mention that many religions disapprove of homosexuality. Then there are all those progress pride flags and lanyards…

Very interesting observation, thank you.

If SP can get struck off for dark humour jokes on a WhatsApp. Then any NHS professional who has attended an event where people have carried banners/placards with slogans calling for violence, and even death, against any demographic should also be struck off.

Appalonia · 29/07/2025 22:31

Anactor · 29/07/2025 22:04

Yeah. It’s a witch hunt. Dare to go against the great and not-so-good and they will find something you’ve done that will be used to hang you.

To me this is why it's important to defend the rights of pp you don't agree with because it's about defending the legal principle, not the person's views. I don't like the views or actions of pp like Shamin Begum, Nigel Farage or Tommy Robinson, but I don't think anyone should have their statehood removed, their bank account closed down or held in solitary confinement in prison for contempt of court. It's only recently I've really understood that saying, I may not agree with what you are saying, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it ( sic ).

Because it could be any of us. Just think of all the gender critical pp who were kicked off Twitter before Elon Musk took it over.

I'm repulsed by the cruel jokes Sandie shared. I don't know anyone who would share such things, or think they were funny. But we still have to defend her ( OUR ) right to single sex spaces.

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 22:34

Shetlands · 29/07/2025 21:27

It's not very long ago that a man being in the women's changing rooms would cause uproar. He'd be reported, turfed out by security or the police and referred to as that filthy pervert or that kinky weirdo.

Now, a man is told he has rights to be there, even stripped down to the women's underwear that he wears and that women are expected to take their clothes off in front of him without complaint!

It's quite astonishing how women have had our rights to privacy, safety and dignity STOLEN by men without our consultation or consent. If we dare to challenge this intolerable situation, we're bigots and our personal lives will be raked over for every awful thing we've ever said or done and we'll be publicly shamed for our sins. No woman will ever be permitted to refuse to submit to the superior rights of men to parade whatever gender identity, kink or fetish they wish to push in our faces while they fulfil their voyeuristic desires.

If Nurse Peggie with her 30 year unblemished record of public service falls at the last hurdle due to her outdated racist language (expressed in private), heaven help any other women brave enough to speak out. What would their private messages reveal about them that they'd rather keep out of the newspapers? Tax avoidance? Affairs? Lies? Enjoying a drink? Be warned sisters - we might win this battle eventually but more than one woman's life will be trashed along the way...

Don't forget nobody was happy with Pete the Plumber in the scenarios.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

So what actually is the difference between Pete and Beth other than the name?

Dogsrbrill · 29/07/2025 22:35

This a lesson to all women , if you object to gender identity . Sandy reposted a dubious set of jokes and had been hauled over the coals . She's still a very brave women who has had her character assassinated because she isn't a saint .

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:36

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 22:34

Don't forget nobody was happy with Pete the Plumber in the scenarios.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

So what actually is the difference between Pete and Beth other than the name?

Were Pete’s feelings ever discussed?

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:36

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 22:19

He'd have to have changed his trousers at some point (into and out of scrubs).

Edited

Skirt on, trousers off? No idea and it doesn’t really matter - no laddies in the lassies’!

Canijustsayonething · 29/07/2025 22:37

Thank you so much @nauticant and to many other regular contributors who posted the TT info and other interesting articles but also the funny pictures by @Boiledbeetle and Bez, even tho I could barely understand the Fifer!

I still stand with SP, despite what's come out over the last couple of days. This tribunal needs to be remembered for the reason it was brought - no men should be allowed in SSS irrespective of their attire.

See you in September!

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:37

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

I expect most patients don’t realise Upton is trans - they just think he is a bloke with long hair.

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 22:38

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:37

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

I expect most patients don’t realise Upton is trans - they just think he is a bloke with long hair.

And makeup probably.

Bannedontherun · 29/07/2025 22:39

Had to fast forward, as i was on catch up from 6pm today.

Watching Foran analysis on this from yesterday JR has to show Sandie is an out and out bigot, who was not motivated by a man in a woman’s changing room at all. JR is trying to show that the only reason she objected to DU in the CR was because she is also transphobic, and therefore was targeting DU.

Hence the character assassination.

Foran was, as of yesterday, of the view that JR had not succeeded in her attempt to make that link.

Today we heard Sandie Pegg’s testimony, which i felt was honest and further undermines JR attempt to show that she was motivated by transphobia.

It was not surprising to me the type of language SP used. It is still common, in the place where live.

I was brought up (in a none university educated background) which i would describe as well off working class.

in addition i had an irish grandmother, and an adopted first cousin who was Chinese

i recall wanting a gollywog doll when i saw one at seven and my dad explained why no.

We moved up north in my formative years, and i distinctly remember in the late seventies being on a school bus where teens were singing a song on the way home that the teachers did not prevent

that went

come to Birmingham in the sun

The N word outnumbers you 10 to one…….

it has not gone away, and people, who unlike me had diversity, carry on hard baked ideas in to adulthood.

i feel there is a bit of pearl clutching on here.

as feminist we need to have open discussions about this but elsewhere.

I feel Sandie may well have been on a personal journey about some of her values.

i feel she stood up today and was just honest. Be that difficult to hear.

BUT LEST WE FORGET SHE PUT HER HEAD ABOVE THE PARAPET FOR HER, AND OTHER WOMEN’S RIGHTS AND SUFFERED GRAVE PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES.

AND HAS RUN THE GAUNTLET OF PUBLIC SCRUTINY FOR ALL OF US, AND OUR DAUGHTERS MUTUAL BENEFIT.

SHE HAS DONE SOMETHING THAT NONE OF US, HERE HIDING OURSELVES IN ANONYMITY HAS DONE.

AND FOR ME SHE REMAINS A SHERO.

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 22:40

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 22:00

I'm getting my money's worth out of this image

Is it identifying as the Common Wealth Games mascot?

moto748e · 29/07/2025 22:40

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:12

Actually I thought that was a piece of evidence that JR might have preferred to not have aired. We were repeatedly told that DU was always covered etc so there was no issue, but the mental picture of a male in a bra is difficult to shake. NC asked FW about what if a male took his trousers off? And for me that really underlined the boundary problem… ok let’s say DU did keep their trousers on and wear a bra in the CR. This was early days, might DU get more comfortable over time and wear less? Or maybe another TW would arrive and wear less? How would anyone deal with that? The case by case basis must be on the facility and NOT the person. The NHS hadn’t thought any of this through at all… or had and didn’t care about it’s 80% female workforce

Hesitate to bring this topic up again 😀but it did strike me, presumably DU pitches up for work every day in female attire, as he has done for court? So I'd assume he'd wear a bra filled with something or other, and wouldn't be that amazed if he did the same in his scrubs.

BeeSourianteAgain · 29/07/2025 22:40

It's no shock to find that GCs are prone to racism and homophobia (obviously on top of the insane transphobia) - pretty much any trans person could tell you that..hell you had some prime racism on here a couple weeks ago and nothing was done about it.

Anyway, the NMC will very likely end up taking that vile nurse's pin away, thankfully given that they don't suffer fools gladly.

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:41

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:37

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Scrubs are unisex?

I expect most patients don’t realise Upton is trans - they just think he is a bloke with long hair.

That was early in transition days so probably initially true yes other than noticing called "Beth" on their name tag. Which in hospital would be the least of patient's concerns.

Generally people don't use "he/she" face to face and even to other staff probably would say "Dr. Upton sent me" or the "doctor".

KittyWilkinson · 29/07/2025 22:41

Thank you all so much. Too many to mention. I'd leave someone out I'm sure if I listed you all - but a special thanks to @nauticant and TT.

JR will be hearing a bit more about her funding questions I'm guessing.
I've learned also that being a K.C. doesn't necessarily equate having a great talent for advocacy.

INeedAPensieve · 29/07/2025 22:45

Gosh I'm still catching up with all the threads. It's shocking what NHS Fife did and I do hope they will be held to account. No process was followed and allowing a man into a single sex space was just awful.

Thanks again to nauticant for the thread keeping and hopefully things start to improve for women soon.

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 22:45

That was early in transition days so probably initially true

What has changed? His February photos still look like a bloke.

ThatCyanCat · 29/07/2025 22:47

ickky · 29/07/2025 22:20

Although the Tribunal hasn't ended how we hoped, I must say I have really enjoyed everyone's company the last couple of weeks.

Thank you so much @nauticant It has been a mammoth task carried out with pinpoint accuracy.

Love ya all. ❤

It hasn't ended yet...

BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:47

I've posted elsewhere on the racist jokes mosques element, other than to add that I hope Sandie isn't "struck off" for her comments.

I would hope that she is expected to access some remedial training and reflection, assuming that is she hasn't mistreated patients or staff.

Manderleyagain · 29/07/2025 22:49

RoyalCorgi · 29/07/2025 20:14

A few thoughts:

  1. Clearly the revelations about Sandie's racist comments are quite disappointing, especially coming at the end after several weeks in which Sandie had seemed like a beacon of sanity and courage in comparison to the cowardly, lying bullies in management at NHS Fife.
  2. I don't suppose there'll now be a dramatisation of the case, which is a shame, as I was really looking forward to it.
  3. Nonetheless the fact that Sandie has some unsavoury attitudes is completely irrelevant to the matter at the heart of this case, which is that NHS Fife breached workplace regulations by allowing a man into the women's changing room, and having done that, had the audacity to suspend Sandie for challenging their decision. And didn't even bother to follow due process in doing so.
  4. What is the logic of NHS Fife's argument? "Women who have racist attitudes deserve to be punished by being forced to undress in front of a man?" I can't find the bit of the law where it says this - perhaps Jane Russell could direct me.
  5. I cannot fathom why the judge allowed this line of argument - about Sandie's racist comments - to be heard. What is it supposed to add to the case?
  6. Given that NHS Fife is supposed to be so hot on diversity and equality, why didn't they act on Sandie's alleged racism earlier? Why wait till now to bring it up? It doesn't reflect well on their own internal processes.
  7. I am worried that in all the back-and-forth about who said and did what to whom that the very simple issue of NHS Fife breaking the law is forgotten about. Much as I admire Naomi Cunningham, I feel she could have hammered home this point more than she did. And I worry about whether the judge has completely understood that this is the core of the issue.

Just to pick up on this from further up thread.
On point 7, I'm no lawyer but from following many of these tribunals I think the testimony and cross examinations only cover things which the witnesses can talk directly about. The main legal arguments will be in the submissions. Earlier it came up that isla bumba (i think) hadn't considered the workplace h&s regs, and it was demonstrated pretty well that everyone just assumed upton had every right to be in the ladies changing room, but in general the witnesses time was being used for other points. The fact they didn't actually follow the law in deciding where upton should change will i am sure be a central plank of the submissions. That's the context for the claim that his presence was in itself harrassment related to sex.

Internaut · 29/07/2025 22:50

BriceNobeslovesMurielHeslop · 29/07/2025 19:01

What for, though? Certainly what she’s said in the private group chat is repugnant, but it’s just that, private. There’s no allegation that it changed how she treated patients from different backgrounds, which would obviously be cause for an NMC referral.

Maybe I’m wrong, but I can’t see what she’s
done that what she’s done that’s illegal or damaging to patients. You can’t police people’s thoughts.

The problem is that her thoughts are known. If you were a member of an ethnic minority, how happy would you be being looked after by a nurse with those views?

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 29/07/2025 22:50

I love that there's detailed line-by-line discussion on the actual evidence in the tribunal and TRAs still feel the need to make stuff up Grin don't ever change!

NebulousPhoneNotes · 29/07/2025 22:50

I've been mostly a lurker on this threads on and off, although posted more a few months ago.

I feel very sad with how it ended today, especially where we were a few days back with Upton's screenshot lies. While SP absolutely should win legally, it was a wrong move to bring her back. She didn't do herself favours on the stand today regarding the memes and what she said about language growing up and language she still uses (FFS). She didn't ask to be, but she is representative in the sex is important and trumps gender wars, and her racism does unfortunately arguably kind of taint the rest of us by association. It's already been gleefully used against "terfs' online.

And yes a lot of her colleagues are awful too. She clearly thought it was a safe space in which to post those memes, and said as much. But bottom line is as far as we know, and it may well have come up, none of the others were posting memes like that. Which will be relevant in any misconduct hearings.

Upton is an utter utter arsehole and I sincerely hope that he doesn't get to practice medicine, particularly as a psych doctor. I suspect he'll go off long-term sick and eventually be managed out. This is essentially the start of a lot more employment law issues NHS Fife is going to have.

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