Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48

1000 replies

nauticant · 29/07/2025 17:54

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence was 29 July 2025. It will resume again on 1 to 2 September for closing submissions.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February 2025. Sandie Peggie returned to give evidence on 29 July 2025.

Access to view the second part of the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #40 can be found in this thread: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379717-sandie-peggie-list-of-threads-covering-employment-tribunal-and-afterwards

Thread 41: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379334-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-41 24 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 42: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379820-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-42 25 July 2025 to 25 July 2025
Thread 43: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5379979-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-43 25 July 2025 to 27 July 2025
Thread 44: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5380196-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-44 25 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 45: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-45 28 July 2025 to 28 July 2025
Thread 46: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5381640-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-46 28 July 2025 to 29 July 2025
Thread 47: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5382102-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-47 29 July 2025 to 29 July 2025

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 21:45

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 29/07/2025 21:42

Yes there were definitely Dunblane jokes doing the rounds.

And a friend had just moved to Lockerbie when the plane crash happened and I vividly remember loads of jokes being made.

Didn’t medicine used to be notorious for dark humour?

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 21:45

Peregrina · 29/07/2025 19:39

BTW can I add that as soon as I heard that Upton was stripped down to his bra in the Changing room, it convinced me that he was a man with a fetish, and got a sexual thrill out of it.

Agreed, Sandie could probably have called him a lot worse that weirdo.

I'd bet if someone was to trawl through his WhatsApps and photos they'd some interesting stuff.
If he was a innocent as he says he is he'd have handed the phone over.

Flashout · 29/07/2025 21:48

Im happy to call him a weirdo.

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 21:49

CapeGooseberry · 29/07/2025 21:45

Didn’t medicine used to be notorious for dark humour?

The dark humour that was used on psychiatric wards would probably get everyone fired (not in . But it was a way of coping with terrible situations.
Not saying it's right but it happens. A lot

borntobequiet · 29/07/2025 21:49

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 21:19

Apologies.

It's the texture of the small stuff. I just can't cope with the texture. The giant one though... Do they do something different to it? I shall put it on my list of things to google.

The texture of the large stuff is far, far worse.

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 21:53

Boiledbeetle · 29/07/2025 21:19

Apologies.

It's the texture of the small stuff. I just can't cope with the texture. The giant one though... Do they do something different to it? I shall put it on my list of things to google.

I have no idea. I don't like the giant version. Reminds me of that vile stuff in bubble tea.

Christinapple · 29/07/2025 21:55

https://www.thepinknews.com/2025/07/29/sandie-peggie-trans-tribunal/

https://archive.ph/G6OKw

SP has admitted to using hateful racial slurs pki and chnkey. Her defence was "it's normal and that's how I was brought up".

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 29/07/2025 21:55

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 21:53

I have no idea. I don't like the giant version. Reminds me of that vile stuff in bubble tea.

That's me well and truly deinfluenced

mrshoho · 29/07/2025 21:55

Rhaidimiddim · 29/07/2025 21:30

Surely all the members of that WhatsApp group would then be candidates for investigation and being struck off, if they shared/laughed at the stuff that incriminated SP?

Except for Gina. I think she gets a pass due to being sozzled during these chats 🍸🍷🍹

NotInMyyName · 29/07/2025 21:57

Jellycatspyjamas · 29/07/2025 21:27

It’s not just about racism though, it’ll be about risk to reputation having someone in such a high profile case on your staff team. Rightly or wrongly she’ll be viewed as a “difficult” hire - not because I think she’s a difficult person but the level of discourse on all sides of the debate will mean people will hold a view of her. It’s not unheard of for an ET to be career ending.

In terms of high profile, controversial characters, the most recent example I can think of is Tommy Sheridan - after a career in politics and a prison sentence for perjury he trained as a social worker but very publicly can’t get a job. There’s an argument he should never have been allowed to train but having trained and been accepted on the register, and given the shortage of social workers, he should be able to get a job but at least one employer has told him to stop applying because they won’t hire him.

This link lists quite a few Nurses being struck off in 2025. Im really surprised just how many are being investigated every month and the types of misconduct etc.
https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/hearings/hearings-sanctions/

Pretty sure a whatsapp message identifying a patient and their illness will result in a Nurse appearing on this list.

Latest hearings and sanctions - The Nursing and Midwifery Council

The latest timetable of NMC hearings, fitness to practise hearings for nurses, midwives and nursing associates.

https://www.nmc.org.uk/concerns-nurses-midwives/hearings/hearings-sanctions/

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 22:00

I'm getting my money's worth out of this image

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #48
BeLemonNow · 29/07/2025 22:00

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 21:49

The dark humour that was used on psychiatric wards would probably get everyone fired (not in . But it was a way of coping with terrible situations.
Not saying it's right but it happens. A lot

Oh don't worry mental health patients, myself included, often have an extremely dark sense of humour too.

So did my grandad, who among other things, worked as a chaplain in a psychiatric hospital and got on very well with funeral directors 🤷‍♀️

DavidBattenburgh · 29/07/2025 22:03

MichaelForanfreesubscriptons · 29/07/2025 21:35

Name changed but long time lurker.

I have 5 one month subscriptions to give away.

Please get in touch with your email if interested

Would love one if there are any left but I have no idea how to message you 🤣

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 22:03

Lol at linking Pink 'News' on here 😂😂😂😂

Anactor · 29/07/2025 22:04

Yeah. It’s a witch hunt. Dare to go against the great and not-so-good and they will find something you’ve done that will be used to hang you.

BouncyCastleNHSSquirrels · 29/07/2025 22:07

Needspaceforlego · 29/07/2025 21:38

Really?

I swear I've never heard a Dunblane joke.
I was at the football probably the Saturday after it, a minute silence was held, there was grown men wiping tears away. Dunblane was horrific

BTW I've never heard a joke about the Southport girls either.

Yes. We are quite far from Dunblane though, which I guess supports the theory some posters have floated that the distance from a tragedy plays a part, but I don't think it necessarily originated in our area.

I think the last part of the thread goes to show that there are probably distasteful / amusing dark humour / straight up offensive (delete as personally appropriate) jokes about any subject you could possibly imagine, even if you've not heard them personally, and that there will be a lot of people who are disquieted / amused / offended to varying degrees by them.

FWIW I don't think we should be purity spiralling about humour or whether someone is racist or to what degree.

As far as the tribunal goes I actually think Sandie Peggie did very well today, and came across as very credible. I don't think NC made a mistake at all, nor do I think any views Sandi Peggie might hold that we may have glimpsed today makes her a disappointment or worse person to have brought this claim.

Her personal views shouldn't be under scrutiny here because they aren't relevant. This has been a really good distraction from the TRA handbook, and I would expect in a reasonable, just, and sane world that the tribunal will find in Sandie Peggie's favour.

Christinapple · 29/07/2025 22:07

GreenFriedTomato · 29/07/2025 21:44

Well I don't know.

The public are fickle.

Does no one remember Jade Goody. Very publicly racist and went on to become the nations sweetheart?

Before anyone says that was because of her cancer, she was already well-liked by many before her diagnosis.

And jade was just a 'tv personality' she didn't have the fact she'd.been a dedicated nurse for decades in her favour.

Edited to add- if in healthcare she struggled to get hired, it's inconceivable she wouldn't find employment elsewhere.

Edited

Yes I remember her. Don't kid yourself, she was disliked a lot by a lot of people. I didn't watch BB but I vaguely remember hearing she was a racist too.

After her diagnosis became public a website was set up called isjadegoodydeadyet.com (something like that) that simply had the word "no" on it and nothing else until she died so it could be changed to "yes".

Rhaidimiddim · 29/07/2025 22:11

RogueFemale · 29/07/2025 21:34

Yes, exactly.

And didn't withdraw from the group at the first mention and report all the others for conduct unbecoming...

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:12

UpDo · 29/07/2025 19:45

It was a horrifying thought.

Actually I thought that was a piece of evidence that JR might have preferred to not have aired. We were repeatedly told that DU was always covered etc so there was no issue, but the mental picture of a male in a bra is difficult to shake. NC asked FW about what if a male took his trousers off? And for me that really underlined the boundary problem… ok let’s say DU did keep their trousers on and wear a bra in the CR. This was early days, might DU get more comfortable over time and wear less? Or maybe another TW would arrive and wear less? How would anyone deal with that? The case by case basis must be on the facility and NOT the person. The NHS hadn’t thought any of this through at all… or had and didn’t care about it’s 80% female workforce

ThatCyanCat · 29/07/2025 22:14

Jade Goody was popular from BB. The racism came later on Celebrity BB when she clashed with Shilpa Shetty and it ruined her. Although to this day I don't think it was genuine racism, although it was certainly unacceptable ("Shilpa Poppadom"). I think they were more pissed off that Shilpa was much classier and more successful than they were. I think they thought (wrongly) that she was stuck up and it was more about that than her being Indian.

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:14

ToriaB · 29/07/2025 20:21

Is it possible that the second witness was heard anonymously and in private?

I doubt it - but I wondered if they accepted a written statement added to the bundle to save time and also privacy given the revelations? I wonder if we will ever find out?

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 29/07/2025 22:18

Seems like Andrea Dworkin's wise words are necessary again:

"Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are."

Women do not have to be paragons of virtue in order to have rights and protections. If anyone thinks that only virtuous women should be supported then they are not even an "itty bitty" feminist (to misquote Mary Daly).

ExitPursuedByABare · 29/07/2025 22:19

It did all seem a bit of a damp squib this afternoon.

Lins77 · 29/07/2025 22:19

KnottyAuty · 29/07/2025 22:12

Actually I thought that was a piece of evidence that JR might have preferred to not have aired. We were repeatedly told that DU was always covered etc so there was no issue, but the mental picture of a male in a bra is difficult to shake. NC asked FW about what if a male took his trousers off? And for me that really underlined the boundary problem… ok let’s say DU did keep their trousers on and wear a bra in the CR. This was early days, might DU get more comfortable over time and wear less? Or maybe another TW would arrive and wear less? How would anyone deal with that? The case by case basis must be on the facility and NOT the person. The NHS hadn’t thought any of this through at all… or had and didn’t care about it’s 80% female workforce

He'd have to have changed his trousers at some point (into and out of scrubs).

ickky · 29/07/2025 22:20

Although the Tribunal hasn't ended how we hoped, I must say I have really enjoyed everyone's company the last couple of weeks.

Thank you so much @nauticant It has been a mammoth task carried out with pinpoint accuracy.

Love ya all. ❤

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread