NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

They will each be aware that the other has a job to do. What I can't understand is why JR is trying to claim the SC ruling doesn't apply to changing rooms when it explicitly mentions that it does. Does she think the judge won't know that? Or if the ruling accepts that as true, doesn't that leave everything wide open to appeal by SP? JR's not just a barrister, she's a silk, so she must know this. What's going on?

In complex cases, there will be a tribunal panel of three people, including a legally-qualified employment judge. The rest of the panel will consist of two non-legally qualified lay members, one from an employer-focussed background and one from an employee or trade union background. This panel is often called the 'industrial jury'. More straightforward cases may be heard by an employment judge sitting alone.

My assumption would be the judge writes the judgment in consultation with the other members, and gets their comments and approval on it before it's finalised and then handed down.

Depends a bit on what has gone on behind the scenes - I would guess that things that are said in court stay in court.

Judge together with the two lay tribunal members. Anything financial later I think.

It’s always a pleasure to come across someone as much of a fruit loop as me. We should collaborate one day.

This is correct. They would discuss the issues and reach agreement on the issues collectively before the writing starts.

It is such an odd thing to be SO definitive about in a legal case

Legally and biologically DU is a man. A man with the PC of gender reassignment (whatever that objectively means). I can see that if he had a GRC at the time of the incidents being discussed that would (wrongly) muddy the water legally and cause a lot more faff, but he didn't. And so it is that he is a man in terms of the laws relevant to this case. He can be a man who has the PC of GR and who requests/prefers/demands being referred to as though he is a woman. But then it comes back to choice and the J has already ruled that different people can go with their own choice.

So she could keep stirring the pot and portraying NC as unkind for not acquiescing to his requests, but she can't just state objectively false things, "Du is not a man!" Errr, what is he then?

Controlling language is the foundation that supports the whole house of cards.

Scottish bench book online was published 3 April 2025.

@BoeotianNightmare

The judge, aka Big Sond, is sitting with 2 lay panel members. Meaning they are not lawyers but usually experienced professionals or managers.

They will decide on Sandie’s claims and if proven make a monetary award. And I’m sure NC will ask for public apology, new policies at NHSFIfe, training. Etc. I don’t know where Big Sond sees the limits of his power to order things.

The written judgment will take months I suspect. Especially if they lose Thursday or Friday to hearing not deliberations.

JR should be taking instructions from both clients so she can properly advocate for them. I would expect both clients to not be happy with the misgendering.

JR also knows each time a TWAW witness uses he/him it strengthens SPs case that saying you are a man is not unreasonable.

It also shows that DrU doesn’t pass. If NC had used he and him for SP I think the witnesses would still use she/her.

I think there is a lot we are not witnessing in the private sessions where JR is behaving quite badly so I think she knows she is probably heading into professional misconduct territory with the disclosure issues

It's NHSFs responsibility to disclose information so I don't think JR can be blamed for their lack of disclosure

I think thats the route they should have gone down.
The issue is they appear to have tried to throw mud say there patient safety concerns, say she was homophonic and racist. To justify suspending Sandie.

But once you've made that shit up its kind of hard to say we were unclear on the law.
I'm convinced these people never thought for a second they'd be up in court trying to defend themselves. Making themselves look completely stupid and incompetent.

You'd have a whole lot more respect if someone was man enough to say
'Sorry we fucked up, we suspended her to keep them apart, until Upton moved on. We thought the law was on Beth's side'

It's thought that she will claim that those parts of the judgment were 'obiter'. (uses new word)

Delphgirl explained yesterday.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40?page=36

I feel that JR is a true believer. She may have personal experiences/people she supports or she may be caught up in allyship but it just isn't possible that she interrupts to insist a man is not a man, that being referred to as the man he is is THE MOST hurtful and wounding thing that can happen etc without being having a degree of involvement that goes beyond the professional argument. She's arguing way beyond the defence case there.

I suspect NC is straight as a doe and would be polite, cordial etc but JR appears to have a degree of investment that would be hard to put to one side.

ECD = Emergency Care Department

EC = Emergency Care (i.e. the same thing)

The other issue is the their problem wasn't conflicting information/unclear guidance from EHRC.

They googled the wrong legislation.

To me, she always comes across as a bit of a buffoon.
I’ve only seen her in action, in these GC tribunals, of course, so perhaps it’s because what she’s defending is shite?

I know she can’t truly be a buffoon.
But, y’know - that’s just what I think.

I read somewhere that she has a trans child and her husband is a vocal supporter/protest marcher? Someone can probably confirm?

I was just about to say I've caught up, but skimmed, got the gist, was interestedly sidetracked by chicken sexing, would be a closer description.

But it's been fascinating I have to say. The 'zero evidence, but deffo not lying' defence, the 'recording disappeared then the notes were changed' slipperiness and, of course, the 'stop saying him, even though I know it was agreed by the judge, the panel, and everybody else, months ago, because it's making my witnesses look stupid' debacle.

But the thing I'm really looking forward to is the forensic witnesses.

And like a previous poster suggested, will they be able to uncover the changes that were made to the statement once the recording had been destroyed!

Not enough popcorn in the world for all this.

I think that it might be more helpful if instead of continually referring to Upton as a man that instead NC described him as male. This is much more difficult for JR to contradict & avoids getting into the TRA hijacking of language. Upton may claim to be a "trans woman" but legally he is male.

Is the tech expert a witness for Fife? We are on Fife's defence now, but what could a tech expert tell us that helps the defence?

Re: “aggro” between JR and NC

Look to William Shakespeare, The Taming of the Shrew, Act I, sc. 2

“Do as adversaries do in law, strive mightily, but eat and drink as friends.”

I thought they were two techie people, one on each side.

But, that's what skimming does, you sometimes miss things.

@spannasaurus JR cant be blamed for Fife not disclosing but she claimed Naomi would not find a "smoking gun " and she was on a "fishing" something - it would be unkind to ask how that is working out for her.