NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

Don't forget that JR is actually Lady Russell married to one of the remaining hereditary peers sitting in the House of Lords. He is a Lib Dem spokesman & attended the TRA protest in Parliament Square immediately after the Supreme Court ruling.

We shouldn't be discussing JR's child or children on here.

This (google search below) is amazing. And healthy. We add in chopped aubergine and mushrooms. Also use a low calorie olive oil spray instead of oil. Super delicious.
"Gimmedelicious.com 15 minute healthy roasted chicken and veggies"

And to the pp who hates asparagus: have you tried roasted fresh asparagus?: you season with salt, pepper, parmesan and roast for 15 mins at app 180°. Wonderful, and no slime.

I'm really hoping for this. I fear it's more likely to be a damp squib though so trying not to get carried away. NC comments have built up expectations though.

@KnottyAuty and all who have been thinking ahead to the Environment Agency tribunal: JR is acting for the Environment Agency - ie, again, the respondents. She will not be arguing from a GC point of view, I would not have thought, as that is the pov of the claimant:

(Screenshot incoming, once approved…)

yummy! Muchas gracias! 😁

Maybe JR Googled it and got an old version.

The plan at the end of yesterday:

Peter Donaldson, NHSF IT
30 minutes evidence in chief, 30 minutes in cross
Jim Borwick, IT forensic expert
30 minutes evidence in chief, 30 minutes in cross
Maggie Currer
30 minutes evidence in chief, 45 minutes in cross

Yass @Datun

While my medical ken is outdated and to a significant degree, forgotten or misremembered the IT stuff is very much in my current ken, ken. I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert in servers and backups but I will be able to understand and follow the technical stuff very well and also my Tech Bullshit Detector is quite shiny.

My general expectation with tech people is to expect direct answers, precise information and generally no shilly-shallying aboot when it comes to facts.

If someone (let's say medical staff) didn't carry out search/disclosure instructions correctly, they will be dropped right in it, would be my expectation.

On the subject of what can and cannot be verified from inspection of devices and records, I think we will need to pay very careful attention to the wording of questions and answers. It seems that NC is very strong here, so I'm optimistic that she will get what can be got from these witnesses.

Let's GOOOO TECH TEAM.

She may do a better job on the other side. I haven't been watching the live feed, but some of what has happened suggests to me that JR may be taking this case too personally. Assuming she is full on TWAW as appears, representing the other side may mean she is better able to maintain a proper professional detachment.

Of course NC calls Theodore “Beth” Upton a man.

The Claimant’s case is that Upton is a man (true) and NHS Fife are vindictive, dishonest and incompetent (may well be true).

I think that's how we ended up here though.

We rejig our language to suit theirs and then you get people like India Willoughby and even DU stating that they are female, even BIOLOGICALLY female. Because anything women do to budge up and make room immediately requires further accomodations to be made.

I can bet that if NC tried your suggestions in a bid to fairness or clarity, JR would be up and objecting to that too.

A big part of the sense of frustration, injustice and distress about all of this is that they have left us without words to describe ourselves.

And remember hereditary titles is the one exception for the GRC.

That’s relevant.

My view is that the Environment Agency have hired her to do a bad job - hence not trying to get the claim struck out. But Naomi is appearing for the third respondent and can show that up if it happens. Note I just mean by doing a better job. A reminder that Public servant sued for saying sex is binary needs more plants so we can see Naomi in court again.

I don't know, but it may be that NC has simply never bothered applying to become a KC.

Is Downs not the result of an extra chromosome?

I too am loving the Fifer commentary!

So NHS Fife haven’t remotely followed the timescales/process in the NHS Scotland policy quoted upthread.
Im assuming NC will have that policy. Why did she not ask AG to read out that part of the it (AG kept referring to “the policy”) and compare the timescales? Will she do that in summing up? Anyone knowledgable on this?

Discrimination used to be a good word. It was used for the ability to pick out the best of something.

Like discernment.

We need to discriminate between genuine cases and fraudulent ones.
Between doctors and fantasists.
Between women and imposters.

@prh47bridge and @anyolddinosaur et al - JR is representing the Environment Agency in the upcoming ET - that is the respondents, who are not GC.

See my post with screenshot above.

Dr Upton has changed Dr Upton's first name to Beth is my understanding, and Theo is no longer Dr Upton's first name.

Whether you want to he/him Dr Upton or she/her Dr Upton, or just Dr Upton Dr Upton, I think if's fair to use Dr Upton's current first name if indeed one is on first name terms.

@NeatOchreShark Apparently you have to pay when you apply to be KC. It also takes years. https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/topics/advocacy/becoming-a-kc

I have a celery glass - inherited from DM.
Lovely when doing a cheeseboard and the family are home.

A well connected lady told me a funny story concerning a well known aristo - sorry I just can’t remember who. Anyway he and a friend went shopping for glasses at the posh shop, saw celery glasses and announced it was exactly what they were looking for to serve G&T. The shocked assistant disapprovingly explained they were for celery and moved them along to the tumbler display.

I’ve been imagining counsel teams, judge and panel all in the same LNER 1st carriage back to London each Friday, knocking back the complimentary booze and food.

I expect that a few might be friends outside of work, albeit not especially close.

There's an argument for both, however, the news outlet Reduxx always use the male former names in their articles when reporting and I think that's fair too. While not quite as necessary as the he/himming in this instance, I think the male former name is still relevant and I'm hesitant about any censorship regarding addressing Dr Upton at all. I think the whole point of it is surely that it is not actually a human right to be perceived by others how you would like to be perceived, pronouns, name changes, any of it. In some cases (not nec. this one) the male name is relevant.

I add semolina to my meatballs.

Which sounds like a double entendre, but it’s true!

A Jamie Oliver recipe adds whizzed up Jacob’s cream crackers, instead of breadcrumbs. Which i have tried, but the Nigella recipe with the semolina is better.