NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

Does anyone else feel that because JR was so focused on making the subtext of the “asymmetry” complaint clear (that, in her view, NC was suggesting that the judge was acting “unfairly”), that when she stated categorically that the judge was not treating either side more fairly than the other, she might have made a tactical error? It rather weakens possible grounds for appeal doesn’t it?

There are some barristers who are very specifically activist types where you do wonder, but as a general rule I don't think it's a career you'd go into if you didn't feel comfortable with the principle that it's fine to represent people you disagree with. Much less be so successful at it.

I wouldn't even say it's Machiavellian, rather it's a professional principle that many people think is an inherently good thing. I'd tend to assume a barrister holds that belief unless they say otherwise.

Yes, my impression is that it wasn't a good move. Although (most?) employment law is shared.

I would have thought so! Especially with that accent, being honest.

Could you get it the JBB? It was trans activists who pushed for the trans thing to be in the book. Why not Judge identifying activists also getting their preferred identity written down too, as if it were real.

I don’t think anything in this process happened as it should have! They forgot all about policy and procedure in their eagerness to burn the witch, and all their attempts to retrofit an impression of reasonableness and cover up their excesses have only made them look them worse and worse. Absolute disaster for NHS Fife, but do they even realise how bad it is?

Like Sugarplumfairycakes1 I am also a Fennel and Celery Exclusionary Feminist. I also believe vegetables and cakes should not be combined.

I also cannot believe how Jane Russell is going to be able to argue on the other side of a GC case.

she's getting a masterclass in it from NC. Watch her copy and paste all NC's talking points.

I have been reading this, appalled. How could Fife behave like this? I do hope the tribunal gets it right.
Meantime, I have been watching extracts from musicals, and found myself wondering at a version of The Producers, which is providing my current earworm, altered somewhat. "Springtime for transfolk and binaries; winter for women and girls; Make way for us better womaning, way for our high heels and curls. No more talk of single spaces, shut up women, know your places." Chorus of drag dressed blokes with high kicks coming down a staircase.
With a side dish of 7 brides, set on Hampstead Heath. "I'll tell you 'bout them Sobbin' women, that lives in the current days. It seems they all went swimming with no men to come and gaze. 'Till a transish troop came riding by and saw them in their private place, said we're having that there quiet space, it'll do us nicely, that prospect, who cares if they object" This doesn't work yet.
This activity is the way my anger channels.

I’m only following along on here and I’m exhausted! I really feel for Big Sond and the panel members experiencing this in real time and the concentration required to keep up.

I wonder if they run a sweepstake each day about whether Pete will make an appearance and which witnesses?
Im guessing he won’t for the IT people!

So from the email's use of 'always', it sounds as though suspensions might not be unusual at NHS Fife.

"My concern is always that no matter what advice we provide ECD in relation to alternatives to suspension it is always disregarded"

Is suspension relatively normal in the NHS?

not sure how one becomes a King's Council lawyer but it bothers me JR is one but NC is not. Perhaps instead of KC she can be JKC, arguably better

There must also be times nurses need to change mid shift, due to getting covered in bodily fluids.

Its just not acceptable that women should be sharing changing room with a man.

Many women wouldn't even mention to other women that they are dealing with a heavy period.

Not sure about suspensions but my trust (c20000 employees) sacked 2 people last year for accessing patient records without cause .

I'm going to throw in a wildcard - chicory (endive). Separate the leaves, face up on a plate and put a wee crumbling of boursin and crushed up walnuts in each leaf.

I’m wholly inexpert but doubt that matters. An appeal is decided on a point of law usually or if, I think, it could be argued that the treatment of the witness meant they didn’t get a fair go but I think the examples here re gendering wouldn’t stand the test — I think it is quite a high bar.

I think there is a lot we are not witnessing in the private sessions where JR is behaving quite badly so I think she knows she is probably heading into professional misconduct territory with the disclosure issues and in that moment realised she needed to appease rather than exacerbate. She’s just drawn the judge into making a bit of a tit of himself and she wants to keep that asymmetry going forward.

I don’t think what is said in court would hold much sway with an appeal. They are expected to deal with things like perceived asymmetry in the moment and during the course of the hearing … they can’t, I don’t think, save it up for later.

ie if one party feels the j is being unfair - and they are soooo careful not to express it like that! - they could bring it up in a private session or, as NC has done here, find an opp to make it public as, perhaps, she has already raised it in private.

Given JR response I suspect she has already been reprimanded by J in private sessions and those would belie terms of appeal anyway…maybe!!!

I have a theory about that.

I don’t think he actually did it. I think he grossly underestimated the reaction, and possibly thought that people would think it was funny, or that he was super cool and edgy.

He has a lot of followers and probably thinks that they hang on his every word; and would find all of the elements amusing.
The wife’s kimono, the rushing around (like a cartoon), and the baseball bat, conjures up quite a mental image.
Which has never been forgotten. It’s quite the visual.

In short it was out there, and he couldn’t take it back, cos people would then pile on to ask why he thought that was funny, etc,

Only JM thinks he’s cool. He can’t have remembering that he’s a KC, a wealthy, privileged white man that lives in a windmill.
Better say something edgy!
I mean, that sounds bloody ridiculous. It sounds like someone from a Jeeves and Wooster book.

Just my tuppence-worth of course.

Just checking in, not so busy today so hoping to keep up.

The emails from HR said that there had been no suspensions in A&E but discussed suspensions on EMD (Emergency Medical Department) the broader church, as it were, which umbrellas A&E

Part of what makes NC’s presentation so effective is that she correctly genders Dr. Upton at all times, keeping it clear that he is a man. I wonder if JR could do this.

OMG they sell tea towels with fennel bulbs on them!

I think I could probably spend a lot of money in that shop and annoyingly I was holidaying about 20 miles away earlier this month, oblivious to its existence.

You know how in Rumpole of the Bailey the barristers batter all hell out of each other in court and then repair to Pomeroy's for red wines together - do you think Naomi Cunningham and Jane Russell could bear to do that? My guess is that the antagonism has become more than professional.

Sorry that this is an obvious question but is the decision in this case made by the J alone? Or is there some kind of panel or jury? And will the decision include a decision on damages (assuming SP wins) or will those be awarded later?

"Rooster" 😲

Once they have grown out of the cute, fluffy cheik stage, young (not mature) males are Cockerels and then when they are mature, they are a Cock.

If you don't have the Law, hammer the Facts.

If you don't have the Facts, hammer the Law.

If you don't have the Law nor the Facts, hammer the pronouns.