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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

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33
Needspaceforlego · 24/07/2025 20:36

KateShugakIsALegend · 24/07/2025 18:22

Say what now?

I am so confused. How does that work?

I mean, I know how that works but but but....

So really hes nothing more than a cross dresser.

He seems very controlling to me, I wonder what he is like at home

mrshoho · 24/07/2025 20:39

Have caught up on today's proceedings and the hole keeps getting bigger for NHSF. What an embarrassing shambles and the phrase 'they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery' is jumping out at me.

If this Trust is an example of how the NHS is run then it explains so much of why the NHS is failing. The amount of senior managers, heads of this that and the other, all making such a hash of this 1 case. What the hell else are they fucking up.

Apocalypselastyear · 24/07/2025 20:44

marking a place

DCorMe · 24/07/2025 20:44

I’m also waiting to see if the late Friday afternoon comms from NHS Fife becomes a repeat occurrence tomorrow 😂

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 24/07/2025 20:45

DCorMe · 24/07/2025 20:44

I’m also waiting to see if the late Friday afternoon comms from NHS Fife becomes a repeat occurrence tomorrow 😂

None shall replace me!!!

ExitPursuedByABare · 24/07/2025 20:47

Have you seen on X NC popped into a Foran live chat - to discombobulate him

😂

ExitPursuedByABare · 24/07/2025 20:49

Here

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41
ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 20:52

DCorMe · 24/07/2025 20:44

I’m also waiting to see if the late Friday afternoon comms from NHS Fife becomes a repeat occurrence tomorrow 😂

Oooh. There's a thought. Let's hope someone in comms has a boozy lunch and lets rip.

ickky · 24/07/2025 20:53

TigersAreBetterLookingThanNHSFife · 24/07/2025 17:18

Refers to an earlier GC discrimination case - Allison Bailey's? - where a manager was too upset to follow the process correctly after reversing her car into a bin. The history is fuzzy now but the bin was very memorable.

Someone else may remember better.

Michelle Brewer starts here

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14?page=3

Page 3 | Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 14 | Mumsnet

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible. Send an emai...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14?page=3

2021x · 24/07/2025 20:58

Can I ask a question about Transwomen influencers.

Why are they so obsessed with dressing in lingerie and posting those pics online. I was watching a Buck Angel stream with a TGW who “knew they were a man”. It all seemed to be fine, then they mentioned that they were let go from their job as a teacher because the students found pictures of them in lingerie online.

It split the room and you could tell that BA (a transman) really struggled to keep the conversation going after the pile on in the comments.

Lily Tino does the same, and so does Blaire White. It’s all hyper sexualised.

TerrierCollector · 24/07/2025 20:59

2021x · 24/07/2025 20:58

Can I ask a question about Transwomen influencers.

Why are they so obsessed with dressing in lingerie and posting those pics online. I was watching a Buck Angel stream with a TGW who “knew they were a man”. It all seemed to be fine, then they mentioned that they were let go from their job as a teacher because the students found pictures of them in lingerie online.

It split the room and you could tell that BA (a transman) really struggled to keep the conversation going after the pile on in the comments.

Lily Tino does the same, and so does Blaire White. It’s all hyper sexualised.

Because it’s a fetish.

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 21:07

ExitPursuedByABare · 24/07/2025 20:49

Here

Over 400 viewers for the live broadcast!
im guessing thats unusual for 3rd party commentary on an ET?!

Harassedevictee · 24/07/2025 21:08

ExitPursuedByABare · 24/07/2025 20:47

Have you seen on X NC popped into a Foran live chat - to discombobulate him

😂

I think I am ok to say this Michael Foran was at the ET and at the lunch break he went straight to talk to NC. It maybe they were going to lunch but he may have helped with the heresy point.

MysticCatLady · 24/07/2025 21:13

2021x · 24/07/2025 20:58

Can I ask a question about Transwomen influencers.

Why are they so obsessed with dressing in lingerie and posting those pics online. I was watching a Buck Angel stream with a TGW who “knew they were a man”. It all seemed to be fine, then they mentioned that they were let go from their job as a teacher because the students found pictures of them in lingerie online.

It split the room and you could tell that BA (a transman) really struggled to keep the conversation going after the pile on in the comments.

Lily Tino does the same, and so does Blaire White. It’s all hyper sexualised.

@2021x Read about 'autogynephilia' and then all will make sense.

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 21:17

Harassedevictee · 24/07/2025 21:08

I think I am ok to say this Michael Foran was at the ET and at the lunch break he went straight to talk to NC. It maybe they were going to lunch but he may have helped with the heresy point.

In the livestream he wondered - possibly cynically - whether JR’s regular protests might be preparation of a complaint to the Bar Standards regarding misgendering.

I imagine that would be unwise if she’s been appointed to defend the Environment Agency on the GC side… Difficult then to claim she’s a neutral party if she’s not able to tolerate a case where her clients might be involved in misgendering too, no?

Im assuming the regular spurious interjections/notes and questions spaced randomly across the timeline of evidence are the desperate tactics of someone who knows they have t got a solid defence…

2021x · 24/07/2025 21:18

MysticCatLady · 24/07/2025 21:13

@2021x Read about 'autogynephilia' and then all will make sense.

Right.I understand that, but this person was talking because they had all of the surgery, which seems is extreme for a fetish.

They were so defensive saying it was the parents fault that the kids, this person was teaching found picutures of them online in lingerie. BA was trying to say that "you can have a private life" but I think even they were struggling after that reveal.

CinnamonCinnabar · 24/07/2025 21:18

I'm actually quite shocked that Dr Searle claims to be so ignorant of basic human genetics. I wouldn't expect a ED consultant to remember much from medical school genetics but the basics are relevant in some emergencies - people with Down's syndrome have a much higher risk of heart abnormalities so an unwell baby or child with Down's might have a serious cardiac condition for example.
Women with Turner's syndrome have a higher risk of various medical conditions.

Understanding sex chromosomes is really basic stuff.
XXY+ is Klinefelter's (male, common, often no problems except reduced fertility)
X is Turner's syndrome (less common, will be infertile, possibly other problems)
XX = standard woman, XY = standard man,
anything else is super rare.
It's really not that hard to follow.

TerrierCollector · 24/07/2025 21:21

2021x · 24/07/2025 21:18

Right.I understand that, but this person was talking because they had all of the surgery, which seems is extreme for a fetish.

They were so defensive saying it was the parents fault that the kids, this person was teaching found picutures of them online in lingerie. BA was trying to say that "you can have a private life" but I think even they were struggling after that reveal.

Someone on another thread posters a recent news story of about a man who’s had his legs amputated basically for a fetish. You’d be surprised at the lengths people will go to.

Of course, in some cases it’s a misogynistic, sexiest idea of what women are and how they behave that’s behind the lingerie thing, too.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 24/07/2025 21:24

2021x · 24/07/2025 20:58

Can I ask a question about Transwomen influencers.

Why are they so obsessed with dressing in lingerie and posting those pics online. I was watching a Buck Angel stream with a TGW who “knew they were a man”. It all seemed to be fine, then they mentioned that they were let go from their job as a teacher because the students found pictures of them in lingerie online.

It split the room and you could tell that BA (a transman) really struggled to keep the conversation going after the pile on in the comments.

Lily Tino does the same, and so does Blaire White. It’s all hyper sexualised.

He was let go because of a clear safeguarding fail. What an idiot! Thought that lingerie posing pictures would escape Yr9 and Yr10 scrutiny 🙄 He must have been the laughing stock of the school playground.

Only takes one parent to make a safeguarding allegation, or in his case, for a group of year 9s to shout ‘who made your tits sir? Seen your sexy photos online’ for the headteacher to have a heart attack.

TheDoctorIsAGP · 24/07/2025 21:29

Needspaceforlego · 24/07/2025 20:36

So really hes nothing more than a cross dresser.

He seems very controlling to me, I wonder what he is like at home

I think it's a bit more than that. He seems to genuinely believe, by his own definitions, he's a woman / female, to the point where he's willing to say this under oath.

Angrymum22 · 24/07/2025 21:30

We once spent a bank holiday weekend on a caravan site in Somerset. It was an old holiday camp ( think Butlins but not). It was quite isolated and very pretty surroundings but not near civilisation.

Anyway the family we went with had a static caravan there, we hired one. We had planned to stay until the Monday but they were fully booked. They were hosting a transvestite get together during the following week. Our friends were aware but hadn’t told us. I think they thought we’d be a bit 😱. What they didn’t know was that DH’s best mate is a tranny ( old school) and DH ( bit of a Neanderthal) was not particularly shocked. He is not into dressing but accepts his mate has weird fetishes ( he has his own S&M dungeon).

As the weekend progressed the transvestites trickled in. Remember that this is a remote campsite with a bar. They wore full drag including heals and wigs, despite high winds and soggy grass underfoot. The weirdest thing was watching a small group meeting up in the bar and then sitting “daintily” round a table having placed their handbags on the table.

My friend, not familiar with tranny behaviour, commented on how much effort and detail went into their transformation. I explained that if they dressed like most women do when camping they would look like men. The trans dressers who look like x-rated pantomime dames are serious fetishists, I have it from the horses mouth (DH’s friend) it’s all about sex. He once appeared in the Telegraph in a photo taken at a famous social event wearing a suit that has the back cut out so you can see his full underwear, co ordinated, lacy bra, knickers , suspenders and stockings.

Unfortunately, DH’s friend is rather sad that the TRAS have lead to serious problems for the old trannies who no longer feel that they are a distinct group, a heterosexual subgroup of the drag movement who are less public and not in the entertainment sector. They are being forced into extinction. They didn’t flaunt their fetish in public, meeting in private groups, basically not bothering anyone. A little bit like the Masons but in dresses, from what I heard quite a few were members of both.

My DH’s friend has always maintained that it’s no different to being a football fan or a trainspotter. It requires a bit of effort but rarely spills into everyday life. And importantly it doesn’t involve surgery or hormones. The vast majority just wanted to dress like women they had no urge to be women.

I know a trans woman who actually dresses like most of us, jeans, t-shirt, converse and little makeup. She identifies as a woman but quietly gets on with life. She has had surgery and takes hormones, and does not really pass , but her reason for transitioning is due to severe PTSD after a spell in the forces in the Middle East. She would find any large, noisy, aggressive crowd very triggering so does not join in with the current mainstream Trans movement.

I am GC but actually understand the reasons behind the transition in the Trans individual I know. She is definitely not a look at me trans and I have no problem respecting her pronouns. Because she doesn’t expect me to treat her as anything but a person.

Handelgently · 24/07/2025 21:33

My DH also has a very good friend like this!

NotAtMyAge · 24/07/2025 21:35

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 21:17

In the livestream he wondered - possibly cynically - whether JR’s regular protests might be preparation of a complaint to the Bar Standards regarding misgendering.

I imagine that would be unwise if she’s been appointed to defend the Environment Agency on the GC side… Difficult then to claim she’s a neutral party if she’s not able to tolerate a case where her clients might be involved in misgendering too, no?

Im assuming the regular spurious interjections/notes and questions spaced randomly across the timeline of evidence are the desperate tactics of someone who knows they have t got a solid defence…

Surely this is a non-starter, given that it was ruled buy a judge in a preliminary session that correct sex pronouns could be used for Upton?

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