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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

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33
perfidiousmoose · 24/07/2025 21:38

BezMills · 24/07/2025 14:50

I have to retire from the field. Well that had its ups and downs! I'll read back the bits I missed on the threeds (like all of it)

Wha?! Naw! Don tak wir Fifer awa ... please ... joost let him ha a wee holida ken ken?

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 21:39

2021x · 24/07/2025 21:18

Right.I understand that, but this person was talking because they had all of the surgery, which seems is extreme for a fetish.

They were so defensive saying it was the parents fault that the kids, this person was teaching found picutures of them online in lingerie. BA was trying to say that "you can have a private life" but I think even they were struggling after that reveal.

If you have a strong stomach then maybe google non-binary surgeries and then come back to talk about whether fetishists would think surgery is too extreme?

Binglebong · 24/07/2025 21:43

I've had to skip today, any highlights?

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 21:43

Angrymum22 · 24/07/2025 21:30

We once spent a bank holiday weekend on a caravan site in Somerset. It was an old holiday camp ( think Butlins but not). It was quite isolated and very pretty surroundings but not near civilisation.

Anyway the family we went with had a static caravan there, we hired one. We had planned to stay until the Monday but they were fully booked. They were hosting a transvestite get together during the following week. Our friends were aware but hadn’t told us. I think they thought we’d be a bit 😱. What they didn’t know was that DH’s best mate is a tranny ( old school) and DH ( bit of a Neanderthal) was not particularly shocked. He is not into dressing but accepts his mate has weird fetishes ( he has his own S&M dungeon).

As the weekend progressed the transvestites trickled in. Remember that this is a remote campsite with a bar. They wore full drag including heals and wigs, despite high winds and soggy grass underfoot. The weirdest thing was watching a small group meeting up in the bar and then sitting “daintily” round a table having placed their handbags on the table.

My friend, not familiar with tranny behaviour, commented on how much effort and detail went into their transformation. I explained that if they dressed like most women do when camping they would look like men. The trans dressers who look like x-rated pantomime dames are serious fetishists, I have it from the horses mouth (DH’s friend) it’s all about sex. He once appeared in the Telegraph in a photo taken at a famous social event wearing a suit that has the back cut out so you can see his full underwear, co ordinated, lacy bra, knickers , suspenders and stockings.

Unfortunately, DH’s friend is rather sad that the TRAS have lead to serious problems for the old trannies who no longer feel that they are a distinct group, a heterosexual subgroup of the drag movement who are less public and not in the entertainment sector. They are being forced into extinction. They didn’t flaunt their fetish in public, meeting in private groups, basically not bothering anyone. A little bit like the Masons but in dresses, from what I heard quite a few were members of both.

My DH’s friend has always maintained that it’s no different to being a football fan or a trainspotter. It requires a bit of effort but rarely spills into everyday life. And importantly it doesn’t involve surgery or hormones. The vast majority just wanted to dress like women they had no urge to be women.

I know a trans woman who actually dresses like most of us, jeans, t-shirt, converse and little makeup. She identifies as a woman but quietly gets on with life. She has had surgery and takes hormones, and does not really pass , but her reason for transitioning is due to severe PTSD after a spell in the forces in the Middle East. She would find any large, noisy, aggressive crowd very triggering so does not join in with the current mainstream Trans movement.

I am GC but actually understand the reasons behind the transition in the Trans individual I know. She is definitely not a look at me trans and I have no problem respecting her pronouns. Because she doesn’t expect me to treat her as anything but a person.

Edited

Unfortunately flaunting their fetish in public is very much a part of many transvestic fetishists' thrill. The non consensual participation of others is often required.

WandaSiri · 24/07/2025 21:46

2021x · 24/07/2025 21:18

Right.I understand that, but this person was talking because they had all of the surgery, which seems is extreme for a fetish.

They were so defensive saying it was the parents fault that the kids, this person was teaching found picutures of them online in lingerie. BA was trying to say that "you can have a private life" but I think even they were struggling after that reveal.

Dr Az Hakeem is a psychotherapist who has many trans and detrans clients. He explains that there are three distinct groups amongst adult males:

  1. Non-fetishistic cross-dressers - they like to dress up and appropriate women's stuff but do not get a specifically sexual thrill. (I believe Ray Blanchard also said that some of this group are homosexual but not 100% sure.)
  2. Fetishistic cross-dressers - same as 1 above but they do get sexual pleasure from wearing women's clothes and appropriation of women's stuff. Dr Hakeem says that this is by far the largest group of his clients
  3. Autogynephiliacs - they get a sexual thrill from imagining themselves as women. Their fetish is with women's bodies and bodily functions. In extreme cases, they even go for removal of their penis but usually regret this. This is by far the smallest group. When people reference AGPs, they are usually talking about fetishistic cross-dressers.

This is a really eye-opening interview with Dr Hakeem:

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 21:47

NotAtMyAge · 24/07/2025 21:35

Surely this is a non-starter, given that it was ruled buy a judge in a preliminary session that correct sex pronouns could be used for Upton?

I thought so too, but the ruling came before the May 2025 date that JR was bandying around (albeit the English book). And the bench book says that pronouns are supposed to be avoided. And NC was using them very liberally - she would use DU's name and then also use male pronouns. So they could potentially try to stir up trouble. But based on the publicity around this case I feel that the end result might be a change to the Bench Book. About 5-6 years ago it was full TWAW with compelled speech for witnesses - who were told off by the judge if they didn't use preferred pronouns, even if their experience of that person was as a male and the first time they knew of their trans-ness was when they turned up in the dock with a handbag?! Sorry I don't have examples but others here can probably confirm that some women had to refer to "her penis" to describe their sex attack. Horrific.

Angrymum22 · 24/07/2025 21:52

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 21:43

Unfortunately flaunting their fetish in public is very much a part of many transvestic fetishists' thrill. The non consensual participation of others is often required.

I agree but they are not interested in Trans, but the Trans movement facilitate the exhibitionism. It’s difficult to separate them nowadays but I bet a lot of old school TRAS are not happy.

I think that this is where the trans supporters lack the critical thinking required to see this soup of men who like to dress as women in order to see those who want to be just women. It may be easier for those of us with more experience to spot the difference, whereas the “naive” indoctrinated are blissfully unaware of the fetishism.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 24/07/2025 21:53

KnottyAuty · 24/07/2025 21:47

I thought so too, but the ruling came before the May 2025 date that JR was bandying around (albeit the English book). And the bench book says that pronouns are supposed to be avoided. And NC was using them very liberally - she would use DU's name and then also use male pronouns. So they could potentially try to stir up trouble. But based on the publicity around this case I feel that the end result might be a change to the Bench Book. About 5-6 years ago it was full TWAW with compelled speech for witnesses - who were told off by the judge if they didn't use preferred pronouns, even if their experience of that person was as a male and the first time they knew of their trans-ness was when they turned up in the dock with a handbag?! Sorry I don't have examples but others here can probably confirm that some women had to refer to "her penis" to describe their sex attack. Horrific.

I've carefully read the May edition of the book, and it talks about the judge being neutral and witnesses not being constrained, and trans parties not being misgendered to their face. Also about the issue of pronouns not being raised if not relevant to the case. But I get no suggestion in it that parties/their counsel should be inhibited in using either type of pronouns to make their point when being trans is actually relevant to the issues in the case.

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 21:54

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 16:26

But surely nothing that the vulnerable DU says is a LIE?? How very dare you suggest such a thing! He had to be walked to his car, walked to his car I tell you, because he was so upset he lost the use of his legs. Have you no compassion?!

To quote the wonderful Naomi Cunningham.
The answer to that is

No.

Arran2024 · 24/07/2025 22:02

Angrymum22 · 24/07/2025 21:30

We once spent a bank holiday weekend on a caravan site in Somerset. It was an old holiday camp ( think Butlins but not). It was quite isolated and very pretty surroundings but not near civilisation.

Anyway the family we went with had a static caravan there, we hired one. We had planned to stay until the Monday but they were fully booked. They were hosting a transvestite get together during the following week. Our friends were aware but hadn’t told us. I think they thought we’d be a bit 😱. What they didn’t know was that DH’s best mate is a tranny ( old school) and DH ( bit of a Neanderthal) was not particularly shocked. He is not into dressing but accepts his mate has weird fetishes ( he has his own S&M dungeon).

As the weekend progressed the transvestites trickled in. Remember that this is a remote campsite with a bar. They wore full drag including heals and wigs, despite high winds and soggy grass underfoot. The weirdest thing was watching a small group meeting up in the bar and then sitting “daintily” round a table having placed their handbags on the table.

My friend, not familiar with tranny behaviour, commented on how much effort and detail went into their transformation. I explained that if they dressed like most women do when camping they would look like men. The trans dressers who look like x-rated pantomime dames are serious fetishists, I have it from the horses mouth (DH’s friend) it’s all about sex. He once appeared in the Telegraph in a photo taken at a famous social event wearing a suit that has the back cut out so you can see his full underwear, co ordinated, lacy bra, knickers , suspenders and stockings.

Unfortunately, DH’s friend is rather sad that the TRAS have lead to serious problems for the old trannies who no longer feel that they are a distinct group, a heterosexual subgroup of the drag movement who are less public and not in the entertainment sector. They are being forced into extinction. They didn’t flaunt their fetish in public, meeting in private groups, basically not bothering anyone. A little bit like the Masons but in dresses, from what I heard quite a few were members of both.

My DH’s friend has always maintained that it’s no different to being a football fan or a trainspotter. It requires a bit of effort but rarely spills into everyday life. And importantly it doesn’t involve surgery or hormones. The vast majority just wanted to dress like women they had no urge to be women.

I know a trans woman who actually dresses like most of us, jeans, t-shirt, converse and little makeup. She identifies as a woman but quietly gets on with life. She has had surgery and takes hormones, and does not really pass , but her reason for transitioning is due to severe PTSD after a spell in the forces in the Middle East. She would find any large, noisy, aggressive crowd very triggering so does not join in with the current mainstream Trans movement.

I am GC but actually understand the reasons behind the transition in the Trans individual I know. She is definitely not a look at me trans and I have no problem respecting her pronouns. Because she doesn’t expect me to treat her as anything but a person.

Edited

My dad was in the merchant navy in the 50s. The stewards on the ships were transvestites - it was known to be a route for men who couldn't dress up at home, in an industry where it was accepted. The men dressed up and went ashore when the ships docked. My dad, who came from a little fishing village in the north of Scotland, completely accepted these guys - he struggled a lot more with the curry they were serving him!

TheOneWho · 24/07/2025 22:04

The NC reflection "no" still makes me chuckle.

I had to go into the office today. Luckily it's not uncommon to see someone wearing headphones when trying to get some work done. What is less common is someone exclaiming "Ha!" out of nowhere. Oops! Some funny looks at least led to a decent discussion where people would broadly fall into being GC. My organisation isn't particularly captured though, or it's certainly not obviously so.

WithSilverBells · 24/07/2025 22:07

WandaSiri · 24/07/2025 21:46

Dr Az Hakeem is a psychotherapist who has many trans and detrans clients. He explains that there are three distinct groups amongst adult males:

  1. Non-fetishistic cross-dressers - they like to dress up and appropriate women's stuff but do not get a specifically sexual thrill. (I believe Ray Blanchard also said that some of this group are homosexual but not 100% sure.)
  2. Fetishistic cross-dressers - same as 1 above but they do get sexual pleasure from wearing women's clothes and appropriation of women's stuff. Dr Hakeem says that this is by far the largest group of his clients
  3. Autogynephiliacs - they get a sexual thrill from imagining themselves as women. Their fetish is with women's bodies and bodily functions. In extreme cases, they even go for removal of their penis but usually regret this. This is by far the smallest group. When people reference AGPs, they are usually talking about fetishistic cross-dressers.

This is a really eye-opening interview with Dr Hakeem:

Edited

Yes, I think it is important to stress that, according to Dr Hakeem, AGPs and fetishistic cross-dressers are not the same group and the AGPs are a much smaller group. I'm noticing people using that category too broadly and I think, in the interests of factual reporting, we need to point that out every so often.

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2025 22:09

mrshoho · 24/07/2025 20:39

Have caught up on today's proceedings and the hole keeps getting bigger for NHSF. What an embarrassing shambles and the phrase 'they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery' is jumping out at me.

If this Trust is an example of how the NHS is run then it explains so much of why the NHS is failing. The amount of senior managers, heads of this that and the other, all making such a hash of this 1 case. What the hell else are they fucking up.

Pretty much everything and when you bear in mind their idea of urgent is to piss about for months on end and assign something to someone who has loads of holidays booked assisted by someone who is on long term sick leave....

No wonder there is a massive waiting list for treatments even though we are all repeatedly told that the earlier things are diagnosed and treated the better the outcome.

FedUpFeminist · 24/07/2025 22:11

Can anyone tell me if the fact that NHS Fife are calling the IT guy as a witness means they must have some good evidence re the allegations from NC re missing evidence?

SternlyMatthews · 24/07/2025 22:11

crazysnakess · 24/07/2025 19:19

I think it's also because it's been easy to get every single witness to slip up and call him he. As soon as one person does it, everyone else does, because it takes a conscious effort to use she.

Bit difficult to call this harassment when they're all doing it. And at the same time demonstrating that they all know he's a man.

There is no interplay between witnesses though

Conxis · 24/07/2025 22:12

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2025 22:09

Pretty much everything and when you bear in mind their idea of urgent is to piss about for months on end and assign something to someone who has loads of holidays booked assisted by someone who is on long term sick leave....

No wonder there is a massive waiting list for treatments even though we are all repeatedly told that the earlier things are diagnosed and treated the better the outcome.

It was mentioned this afternoon they’d speeded up the investigation as they were concerned about reputational damage.
Wonder how that’s going for them?

borntobequiet · 24/07/2025 22:13

GailBlancheViola · 24/07/2025 22:09

Pretty much everything and when you bear in mind their idea of urgent is to piss about for months on end and assign something to someone who has loads of holidays booked assisted by someone who is on long term sick leave....

No wonder there is a massive waiting list for treatments even though we are all repeatedly told that the earlier things are diagnosed and treated the better the outcome.

If this is an indicator, it explains why productivity is so low in the health service. TBF it can’t be much worse than education, which is the sector that I know best.

Bluebootsgreenboots · 24/07/2025 22:16

Conxis · 24/07/2025 22:12

It was mentioned this afternoon they’d speeded up the investigation as they were concerned about reputational damage.
Wonder how that’s going for them?

It would be unkind to ask ….

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 24/07/2025 22:17

I think NC gave the perfect demonstration for when MN posters state that No is a complete sentence. Great delivery

SirChenjins · 24/07/2025 22:17

FedUpFeminist · 24/07/2025 22:11

Can anyone tell me if the fact that NHS Fife are calling the IT guy as a witness means they must have some good evidence re the allegations from NC re missing evidence?

I wondered that too. NHSF must be quite sure of themselves to call this witness? (Although I appreciate they've been quite sure themselves in other areas too, and look where that's got them...)

Binglebong · 24/07/2025 22:19

WandaSiri · 24/07/2025 21:46

Dr Az Hakeem is a psychotherapist who has many trans and detrans clients. He explains that there are three distinct groups amongst adult males:

  1. Non-fetishistic cross-dressers - they like to dress up and appropriate women's stuff but do not get a specifically sexual thrill. (I believe Ray Blanchard also said that some of this group are homosexual but not 100% sure.)
  2. Fetishistic cross-dressers - same as 1 above but they do get sexual pleasure from wearing women's clothes and appropriation of women's stuff. Dr Hakeem says that this is by far the largest group of his clients
  3. Autogynephiliacs - they get a sexual thrill from imagining themselves as women. Their fetish is with women's bodies and bodily functions. In extreme cases, they even go for removal of their penis but usually regret this. This is by far the smallest group. When people reference AGPs, they are usually talking about fetishistic cross-dressers.

This is a really eye-opening interview with Dr Hakeem:

Edited

I had heard that AGP was the largest group, interesting.

FannyCann · 24/07/2025 22:20

Hopelessly behind on today’s threads and tomorrow will be a challenge too. That pesky thing called work.
Sorry if anyone else has linked this but I saw it on X and thought how important this case is.
Other women up and down the country are expected to share facilities with men and don’t even know they have the protection of the law. I really hope this woman follows up the advice she has been given and someone points in the direction of JKR legal fund.

Go Sandie. Leading the way for others to take courage and follow in her wake.

https://x.com/highwaterellen/status/1947953627772961276?s=46

Sensitive content
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41
Largesso · 24/07/2025 22:20

Justabaker · 24/07/2025 20:20

Good evening, Nest of Vipers

What week it's been in Dundee and there's still tomorrow to come. I wasn't able to watch today or tomorrow but am following along on TT and on here.

I want to thank everyone for the support and what I understand is referred to as 'gardening'. It really helps us to be able to send our volunteers to tribunals - we have had remote access but also have had someone there in person every day. We have mixed 'in the room' with remote access and because of the concerns from NHS Fife & Dr U about our bias and errors, we have had someone reporting and someone just observing.

My personal opinion - today did not improve the Rs likelihood of success. Not a dramatic day but the pattern of organisational behaviour has been increasingly apparent. The unequal treatment meted out to the two employees is stark.

Tribunals do not set out to referee the workplace argument - Big Sond will not tell us in the judgment 'yes, a woman or not a woman'. Tribunals attempt to answer specific questions; was the employee treated in accordance with the policies of the organisation, fairly and (possibly) are the policies themselves appropriate.

Roll on Friday.

Respectfully I disagree about it not being a big day! Essentially AH and AH confirmed that DU was allowed to secretly change the notes of his interview for the disciplinary i/x and that there were no notes kept of his changes and the initial recording was destroyed. And after all that AG tries to fake an email so it looked like that didn’t happen.

HUGE!

Binglebong · 24/07/2025 22:22

What was the email? I have no chance of catching up on the threads and I can't remember it from The Scottsman's live summery.

Largesso · 24/07/2025 22:24

SirChenjins · 24/07/2025 22:17

I wondered that too. NHSF must be quite sure of themselves to call this witness? (Although I appreciate they've been quite sure themselves in other areas too, and look where that's got them...)

I think the closes sessions must have been about documentation that is part of the extra bundle discussed at close of play.

At part one of the last tribunal when docs appeared to be missing I seem to remember the judge threatening that if they couldn’t do the searches themselves the IT security folk would be instructed to do it. I could be making that up but it’s a vague memory.

I wonder if in the closed sessions NC has set out that material still hasn’t been disclosed so this is a result of security folk search?

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