NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

NHS Pension has different sections, depending on when you joined. I can get some of mine at 60 (1995 section), and the rest when I'm 68 (my state pension age). Assuming SP joined prior to 1995, I think she'd have a different arrangement. There were special pension classes for nurses but I don't know the details.

I dont think they will they have been embarrassed enough however i do think Dr U may try to sue Fife for something he gives me the vibe that the trans must win on something and sadly i think they will probably settle 🤦‍♀️

Fact was so obvious. When asked why she chased down the HCA she said something like I wanted to check if she could support Beth’s version. Not to see if she could provide evidence. A fix is a a fix is a fix.

Also previous day NC her through Sandies position and asked if she ever considered that. It was clear not.

Well you say that, but I had a plumber who looked like Pete, and when I offered him tea he declined because he was vegan!

I also think (from a young terf perspective) that when you're very young, you're actually not aware of sexism for the most part. Looking back I can see I experienced childhood differently to boys, but at the time I really did not feel like I experienced misogyny, even in secondary school. So I was aware of it, and knew it existed as a concept but as I had no experience of it I channelled all my activism power as a teen into TWAW. Then when I became 18 and started getting male attention and also experiencing some misogyny, I was too caught up in what to do with that attention and became VERY caught up in capturing the male gaze at any cost. this went hand in hand with TWAW because as I believed that my value was in my looks, it made sense that other feminine-presenting people were in the exact same boat as me. and besides, being a woman was fun, I felt wanted! Some years later about age 23 I realised male attraction was not all it cracked up to be, being objectified isn't the same as being valued, and the penny dropped. I think it takes some young women a lot longer for the penny to drop as they're battling the push-pull relationship with the male gaze for much longer, but having a TiM older sibling who grew up making misogynistic jokes and then suddenly became "more woman than me" probs helped me along in my journey to understanding. Sorry for the ramble lol! I just think some young women are too enthralled with being in the spotlight of male attention it's difficult for them to see reality clearly sometimes. Did that make ANY sense?

Individuals involved may have various flaws and failings.

They have only been enabled and encouraged by the workplace culture, though. Which has been fostered by people higher up. One could also ultimately look to the Scotgov, Health Secretary, for example.

No; Fife won’t want to, and DU can’t afford to without them.

Nah, he's a thumping great slice of chocolate fudge cake with a big dollop of ice cream type guy.

I wondered whether it had been paid for in anticipation of the inevitable stage show. O need to add any drama to this tale - just read off the transcripts!?

Faye Russell-Caldicott,@FayeRC.

Relevant text you can search for:

"I have issued an employment tribunal complaint against NHS England for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women), religion (Islam), philosophical belief (gender critical) and disability (PTSD) for having a policy in place which effectively renders the supposed single-sex toilet, changing room and showering facilities as mixed-sex."

There's more information here: https://sex-matters.org/case-briefings/faye-russell-caldicott-v-nhs-england/

Fife have definitely called their own IT person, probably to talk about how they searched for documents for disclosure. I haven't heard anything to suggest he witnessed any of the events in question or was involved in any way, so I can't think of any other reason he would be called.

I have seen reports that the mobile phone forensics expert is being called by Fife. If so, I would imagine they will try to highlight any of his findings that back up their case.

Yes I quite agree. KS has contributed quite enthusiastically to this shit show but she's far from some kind of rogue agent operating so far off-book she can't even see the library.

(much as The Board would be happy for her to be painted)

Perfect sense. Many of us have experienced much the same process. We are hoodwinked into offering our sexual availability as young women. Then realise later on that most if it was a con. And our mothers and grandmothers were right.

Tragedy of womanhood, I think. Part of patriarchy is calling older women 'hags', and othering and excluding those who would be able to help younger women.

Probably why the relentless TRA accusations of us as 'old ', especially coming from men who are older than I am and want to claim they are more secually attractive. They are desperately trying to buy into a system that many women here are very aware of as a risky, damaging con.

People are always surprised when I say my husband likes an afternoon tea.

It's odd because it's cakes and sandwiches. What's not to like?

This is why I’d make such a shit barrister. Being able to leave low-hanging, maybe slightly meh fruit and go for the expensive stuff ….i guess right inside, towards the top of the tree? 🤣 who knows. Not my skillset, anyway. Nor are metaphors.

Perhaps the many "poor Beth did nothing wrong" hag haters online will put their money where their mouths are and fund his next attack on women's rights?

Maybe one of the well known rich people who like to gain fame points by slagging JKR off whenever they need a little online boost will do it?

Hmmmm....

I wonder if JR will be taking us back to Sandie's text messages ("mocking" DU, etc). Seems like clutching at straws if so, because nothing particularly damaging was brought out.

@tableauvivant In case no-one has said it while I'm catching up - you can identify as a hag if you wish 😁

Men tend not to age as well as women, apart from the odd silver fox type.

Ooh this might be a good idea to do while i have some money aswell.. thanks ❤️

Happy 40th thread!!! 🎉

Wow can't believe it's gone to 40 threads now. That Alex massie article is bang on. He is a sharp writer with good wit.

The silence from my old newspaper of choice (guardian) is telling isn't it?

Looking forward to more revealing things today. I'm impatient for the verdict now but realise it will be months we have to wait.

Thanks as always to nauticant for the upkeep of this x

Non medic question:

If a woman was admitted to A&E in the last stages of labour, would Dr K Searle have to deliver the baby?

Are there ever any circumstances in which KS as an emergency physician would have to deliver an infant?

If so, would she be required to ascertain and record the child's sex?

Oh I meant tea as in cup of. I actually had almond milk and oat milk in, so he didn't have to go without.

Re: afternoon tea, I agree. But are people offering afternoon tea to the plumber? Should I be doing that?!

I think most are happy with a biscuit.

Love the comment

https://x.com/damekatydenise_/status/1948100549964149203