Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
hholiday · 24/07/2025 09:41

NebulousDog · 24/07/2025 08:59

I think the intention was to start at 10am, but we know how that’s been working out!

Do we think yesterday’s reporting by the BBC was a one-off, or do you think they have noticed that everybody is commenting on how odd and out of step with the newspapers it has been?

In my days in journalism, you’d have had an irate news editor pacing at your shoulder shouting ‘why have they (our rivals) got that line when we haven’t?!’ Maybe somebody has finally cottoned on at the BBC. It’s not just poor balance - it’s poor journalism

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 09:45

Instructions · 24/07/2025 09:38

Perhaps the many "poor Beth did nothing wrong" hag haters online will put their money where their mouths are and fund his next attack on women's rights?

Maybe one of the well known rich people who like to gain fame points by slagging JKR off whenever they need a little online boost will do it?

Hmmmm....

They are not an affluent demographic, and the cost of all that private E adds up quickly.

The most remarkable thing about JKR is that she is willing to spend money.

BeKindWisely · 24/07/2025 09:45

SternlyMatthews · 24/07/2025 08:37

This paragraph stood out for me, in effect "I can tell Upton's sex but not my own"

Thus we reach a situation in which people incapable of determining their own sex are nevertheless also sure that a person such as Upton is indubitably a woman because, well, because he says he is and so that must be true. This contradiction....

Yes. This is the key absurdity being highlighted in this tribunal.

Instructions · 24/07/2025 09:45

Butchyrestingface · 24/07/2025 09:40

Non medic question:

If a woman was admitted to A&E in the last stages of labour, would Dr K Searle have to deliver the baby?

Are there ever any circumstances in which KS as an emergency physician would have to deliver an infant?

If so, would she be required to ascertain and record the child's sex?

Dr S would need to go through a long process of eliminating everything that might be affecting an adult human with a distended abdominal who is describing intense cramping pains coming every couple of minutes, because to her it would of course not be remotely possible to tell that this was a pregnant woman in labour. It might be a very constipated man and it would be the height of unkindness to assume otherwise.

RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 09:45

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 01:15

Honestly I think you’re both reading too much into things and I question the armchair theories.

Having worked in a senior public sector position prone to legal action - I think at the time of events, the NHS was more concerned about Dr U bringing a tribunal claim against them, they were never concerned about SP bringing a tribunal claim as she was the perpetrator in their eyes. He was the one who made the formal complaint which is a precursor to ET action. If SP got in there first with her own formal complaint, perhaps the situation would have played out differently. But given the real sequence of events, SP was never considered a victim or a complainant, merely the source of the problem.

Therefore Kate Searle was simply showing support to Dr U to diminish any claims he may go on to make about being unsupported by the NHS. Trans rights were a trending topic and the NHS saw it as an area with risk. She then received a taste of success after her approach was being praised by her seniors, because she had reduced the risk of ET claims by Dr U. Once support started to diminish due to potential ET claims by SP, she then just crumbled under the pressure and did unethical things to cover herself as the heat was solely on her. It’s likely her seniors who initially praised her, began to distance themselves and place her as the sole decision maker.

in summary it’s not about how pretty anyone was, narcissists or teenage children. It’s as simple as KS being too simple minded to see the bigger picture. She thought the only way this could play out was Dr U being a victim then covered herself when she realised she went in too far.

Edited

If you are used to tribunals and you thought it was likely to go that way, why aren't you covering your own arse by making sure you have proper policies in place and report all concerns?

If Upton had gone to tribunal the lack of policy etc could have come back and bitten her on the arse.

The interesting thing is HR seem to have been much better at this and also had a papertrail saying 'this is being done too quickly and not as a last resort'.

So however you cut it, Kate Searle must have a head girl mentality of wanting to suck up to certain people and ideas because it never entered her head 'what happens if this goes to tribunal? Have I protected the NHS?' She has to be right and she is right and anyone who disagrees with her is wrong and should know their place.

Her actions demonstrate her attitude to risk management and safeguarding. She hasn't done a course in it and she doesn't think management thinks it's a priority. It's not important. The importance of proceedures is irrelevant - she's a doctor she knows best. She's kind after all. No one is going to challenge her.

In this situation it's actually not a patient safety issue - but we see a huge number of cases where this dynamic very much does play out with life changing results or even death.

Genuinely there needs to be a wholesale change and microscope put onto the arrogance of some of these individuals. We KNOW there's a problem with this - there's studies showing how attitudes to female patients affect their care and outcomes. We KNOW that there's high levels of sexism and a terrible track record within the NHS towards protecting female staff and patients.

The god complex in doctors is one we should talk about because it's very relevant here.

Kate demonstrated it in how she closed ranks and told all the other doctors on A&E and didn't consider the duty of care to a nurse. She highlights how she thinks certain people are below her and her consideration. She made the comment - I'm a doctor I'm trustworthy and that Upton since he's a doctor couldn't possibly lie.

And her whole identity has been founded on the idea that she's kind - that was her response - but I'm kind. Never at any point does she think - hmm maybe I'm infallible and I need to make sure I can demonstrate I'm being fair. Never does it enter her head that other doctors might lie or not be kind either. All because she's so wrapped up in this arrogant idea of self and how she's a fucking saint because she's a doctor who can't be questioned.

It comes back to arrogance at all times.

You can't get away from the arrogance. It's there at every step and in every possible explanation.

VimesandhisCardboardBoots · 24/07/2025 09:46

tableauvivant · 24/07/2025 06:26

Don't those hags have anything better to do?

I feel so left out because I'm a guy and therefore can't be a hag.

Thats fine, in the spirit of our Terf Overlord we can be Hagrids instead.

borntobequiet · 24/07/2025 09:46

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 08:49

The link to WPATH SoC 8 is still there.

https://ncth.nhs.uk/other-gp-guidance

This is the document that led to NHS Scotland's internal investigation and reporting themselves to Police Scotland.

Seems NHS Engalnd are fine with it, though.

Really just bumping, especially in the light of current news stories. At least they say this (p. 91) about children

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 24/07/2025 09:46

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 00:35

I’ve said it before- Dr Searle is afraid of Dr Upton. She has recognised that he is a very dangerous man who would turn on her in a moment and spout all kinds of accusations if she didn’t dance to his exact tune. That is why she is appeases him to the nth degree- time honoured technique of a woman “making nice” to a scary man. Sure, she’s also a fully paid up gender ideology cult member but if you look at her behaviour in the context of her being afraid of Dr Upton, it makes more sense.

I agree.
She doesn’t want that dangerous search light now turned on her.
She’s seen what happens to women who stand up to him.
So, she has to be the trans ally, that ever allied - for ever and ever. Amen!

Merrymouse · 24/07/2025 09:46

Lins77 · 24/07/2025 09:39

I wonder if JR will be taking us back to Sandie's text messages ("mocking" DU, etc). Seems like clutching at straws if so, because nothing particularly damaging was brought out.

I don't think the text messages demonstrate anything more than what she has already agreed - that she was upset because she was expected to get changed in front of a man.

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 09:46

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 09:36

Perfect sense. Many of us have experienced much the same process. We are hoodwinked into offering our sexual availability as young women. Then realise later on that most if it was a con. And our mothers and grandmothers were right.

Tragedy of womanhood, I think. Part of patriarchy is calling older women 'hags', and othering and excluding those who would be able to help younger women.

Probably why the relentless TRA accusations of us as 'old ', especially coming from men who are older than I am and want to claim they are more secually attractive. They are desperately trying to buy into a system that many women here are very aware of as a risky, damaging con.

Old, hag, terf, germ its all the same - men trying to insult women into complying and i realised i dont care what they call me!!
Womens rights are too important and being transphobic isnt really a thing.. homophobia was because people were genuinely scared of gay people they thought you could catch it and they were told this by reputable people now im not excusing this in any way but homophobia was a real thing but nobody is scared of trans people they are just standing up for womens rights and children’s rights!!
Trans rights are actually womens rights and as we have seen from this case we still have a hell of a fight on our hands to secure our rights and its insane we are having to do this all over again!!

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 09:47

@Supporterofwomensrights yes, I assume KS being biased is obvious. Sometimes you don’t need to point out the obvious, you can just bring the evidence and let the audience draw conclusions without pushing the point. Sometimes it’s pedantic to push the point, as NC would then be making it dozens of times over as all of the evidence shows KS is biased.

Plus being biased in itself isn’t necessarily the strongest point to make, NC needs to tie it to discrimination or the other legal claims made. So I think she was trying to take it a step further to prove why KS was biased and what her motivations were.

Ultimately lack of partiality is going to be an argument she ties into everything else in summation.

Ramblingnamechanger · 24/07/2025 09:47

Is that real? I know things are bad but…..

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 09:48

borntobequiet · 24/07/2025 09:46

Really just bumping, especially in the light of current news stories. At least they say this (p. 91) about children

Aye, wait till they're 18 til you surgically remove genitals. In the meantime, puberty blockers.

So compassion. Much care.

Jitrenka · 24/07/2025 09:48

ickky · 24/07/2025 09:41

I saw this last night and honestly made me feel 🤮

Ramblingnamechanger · 24/07/2025 09:49

Sorry things moved on quickly ..referringto vasectomy man

ickky · 24/07/2025 09:50

I don't understand why this wasn't solely a HR decision.

What was the point of HR if they are not dealing with disciplinaries and conflict between staff members.

Why was it left to the Line Managers who clearly had no clue how to conduct an investigation or themselves.

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 09:50

Morning all. Well it's 9.50 and I'm already in the room. Stenographers are chatting. No one else present as yet. Looks like we may be off on a surprisingly early start today. (Hope I haven't just jinxed that)

ickky · 24/07/2025 09:51

@Ramblingnamechanger Who knows.

RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 09:52

"Hey you 'insert agiest comment' stop being transphobic, racist and homophobic. He's a she and a proud lesbian. How dare you suggest it's a mental illness".

It's funny how these comments manage to ignore so many other protected characteristics and management to show up just how many prejudices they have and how completely at odds with the Equality Act so many of these comments are.

TheFifersSupportWren · 24/07/2025 09:52

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 09:32

Nah, he's a thumping great slice of chocolate fudge cake with a big dollop of ice cream type guy.

Ok but if, as we suspect, he’s been touring with Men at Work, he’ll have certainly indulged in a bit of Aussie carrot cake - an acceptable vegetable cake for a manly plumber?

NImumconfused · 24/07/2025 09:53

Largesso · 24/07/2025 09:17

You can usually take early retirement from 55 and draw from your work pension but you won’t get your state pension until the age set by government. Current generation is set for 67 before you can access state pension.

If she took retirement at 55 her pension would be reduced by about 25% though.

ArabellaScott · 24/07/2025 09:53

ickky · 24/07/2025 09:50

I don't understand why this wasn't solely a HR decision.

What was the point of HR if they are not dealing with disciplinaries and conflict between staff members.

Why was it left to the Line Managers who clearly had no clue how to conduct an investigation or themselves.

I'm unclear how Searle is even involved in, say, staffing rotas. Or why her opinions would have much effect. Shes not HR not a manager?

Merrymouse · 24/07/2025 09:54

RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 09:45

If you are used to tribunals and you thought it was likely to go that way, why aren't you covering your own arse by making sure you have proper policies in place and report all concerns?

If Upton had gone to tribunal the lack of policy etc could have come back and bitten her on the arse.

The interesting thing is HR seem to have been much better at this and also had a papertrail saying 'this is being done too quickly and not as a last resort'.

So however you cut it, Kate Searle must have a head girl mentality of wanting to suck up to certain people and ideas because it never entered her head 'what happens if this goes to tribunal? Have I protected the NHS?' She has to be right and she is right and anyone who disagrees with her is wrong and should know their place.

Her actions demonstrate her attitude to risk management and safeguarding. She hasn't done a course in it and she doesn't think management thinks it's a priority. It's not important. The importance of proceedures is irrelevant - she's a doctor she knows best. She's kind after all. No one is going to challenge her.

In this situation it's actually not a patient safety issue - but we see a huge number of cases where this dynamic very much does play out with life changing results or even death.

Genuinely there needs to be a wholesale change and microscope put onto the arrogance of some of these individuals. We KNOW there's a problem with this - there's studies showing how attitudes to female patients affect their care and outcomes. We KNOW that there's high levels of sexism and a terrible track record within the NHS towards protecting female staff and patients.

The god complex in doctors is one we should talk about because it's very relevant here.

Kate demonstrated it in how she closed ranks and told all the other doctors on A&E and didn't consider the duty of care to a nurse. She highlights how she thinks certain people are below her and her consideration. She made the comment - I'm a doctor I'm trustworthy and that Upton since he's a doctor couldn't possibly lie.

And her whole identity has been founded on the idea that she's kind - that was her response - but I'm kind. Never at any point does she think - hmm maybe I'm infallible and I need to make sure I can demonstrate I'm being fair. Never does it enter her head that other doctors might lie or not be kind either. All because she's so wrapped up in this arrogant idea of self and how she's a fucking saint because she's a doctor who can't be questioned.

It comes back to arrogance at all times.

You can't get away from the arrogance. It's there at every step and in every possible explanation.

She made the comment - I'm a doctor I'm trustworthy and that Upton since he's a doctor couldn't possibly lie.

It's an interesting variant on the 'no true Scotsman' line!

CatOnAHotRadiator · 24/07/2025 09:55

In terms of DU potentially claiming that could be an interesting case.

Yea, his behaviour is awful. No dispute. But a claim that determined that it is also detrimental to trans identifying staff to not have a clear legal policy that stops them from being put in the position DU is now would be helpful.

As a PP said though they’d prob settle and so we’d not get a determination.

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 09:55

Are the people involved still actively working in public facing NHS medical roles? If so, I wonder if any members of the public have discussed this tribunal with them. I could imagine SP, DU & KS facing some comments given the wide publicity

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.