NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

New motherhood vulnerability is exactly the reason I fell down the gender rabbit hole when my son was born - I was hammered into thinking I had been a terrible person for all my thought crimes and started to say TWAW. It's well known that big transitions in life are the moments that people are the most susceptible to being hooked in by cults. I've made this point before. It's hilarious that they are trying to co-opt this idea now, too.

It would seem very unfair for all of this to be pinned on one person.

Clearly there has been massive institutional capture. I want to know who was responsible for that.

Possibly quite soon. I'm not a nurse, but I know nurses on older NHS contracts were able to retire at 55. I assume it's crept up to 68 now, along with the rest of us NHS plebs!

This is key. Instead of recognising the non violent and polite nature of those around them, they are perceiving danger. They fail to recognise that whilst it may be upsetting or anger inducing that someone regards your sex as being immutable and significant, this view - even if expressed- does not reflect danger. They also fail to recognise that they do not need to become highly dysregulated when faced with these views.

A course of CBT from a skilled practitioner would go a long way to helping them overcome their fears and corresponding dysregulation

In my mind, the GMC needs to gather together its epistemic classes and deprogramme them from:

• suicidal empathy
• narcissistic compassion
• luxury beliefs
• assuming a hierarchy of protected characteristics
• encouraging drama triangles
• acting on biases

Further additions? Refresher on biology, how to be credible?

And then I remember that the GMC is signed up to this. The profession is undermining itself in a plain sight because? See above list.

Whereas for me, new motherhood was when it clicked that I was completely and utterly dependent on rights that could be taken away and that men didn't need.

This does my head in. The actual story makes for compelling news and great journalism, and, get it in front of the mainstream audience, and there's a good chance it will get a large and appreciative audience.

Especially since we've now had about a decade, maybe longer, where the "facts" have to be mediated through a progressive lens so that the content produced fits a narrative that supports the Omnicause.

I had thought KS could be compared to Dr Drake (OU witness and witchfinder general in the Jo Phoenix case) - but without the style, charm and intelligence! But as others have said she’s closer to Vennells - as they both see themselves as kind and good I was going to suggest they get together and support each other. However I note Drake is still at the OU and has been promoted I assume as she now has a professorship (presumably the vacant one after her plan to oust Jo worked).

Consent is another thing, like tolerance and kindness, that has been promoted to the be all and end all (in some circumstances). You do not have any right not to be mentioned in court, however uncomfortable of fearful it may make you.

Becoming a mother does tend to reveal the stark truths of biological sex rather definitively.

You can usually take early retirement from 55 and draw from your work pension but you won’t get your state pension until the age set by government. Current generation is set for 67 before you can access state pension.

I’m a bit behind on the thread but wondering if I’ve misunderstood something - KS referred to the walk out patient being a mental health patient but I’m sure in DU evidence it was a child and parents that had left.

Pregnancy is when I realised I was not, in fact, considered equal to my male work colleagues or my male husband. The misogyny of maternity care and the sudden sidelining of my career was a shock. Going back to work was one hell of a shock too, and I worked for a massive global company in their HQ with fantastic maternity policies.

I make this often it contains no courgettes. Is it another self ID thing 🤷‍♀️

Sounds like a Fall Out Boy song 😄

Don’t worry. If you identify as a hag then you are one as far as I’m concerned. Feel free to access all gah facilities as you wish. We don’t do pillow fights but we do giggle. I hope that’s ok?

Perhaps KS should have thought about all this before referring to the colleague in her evidence.

The letters are in the bundle & are so obviously improper that it was a better use of cross-examination time to interrogate KS on the may other ways that she acted even more improperly e.g. by approaching the HCA who backed up SP's account of missing patient interaction. NC will highlight these emails in her submission.
There is an HR person giving evidence today. NC might ask their opinion regarding the emails.

This is one reason why terfs tend to be older. There is nothing like motherhood, and then the young kids/older parents stage of life, to make you realise a) how stark the biological difference is and b) what the actual expected female role in society is and how few male people who "live as women" are actually doing it. Shopping, cooking, ferrying kids to swimming and Brownies, taking the dog to the vet, keeping on top of birthdays and school holidays, pulling a World Book Day costume out of thin air the night before and so on usually while working as well.

It's not because we are angry, wizened old hags. That's just a bonus.

I'm willing to bet that Pete the Plumber would not entertain the idea of eating cake made with vegetables.

I hear JR is going to the argue the Supreme Court clarification doesn’t cover work places. So one side will lose on the point of whether Fife’s “policy” was legal and whether Dr U should ever have been there in the first place.
Im pretty sure if Sandie loses on that point she will appeal it. Do we think Fife or DU will appeal if they lose on that point?

Not sure if earlier posters got responses, but just wanted to politely disagree with those who suggest KS is scared of Upton or the consequences of going against gender supremacy. She seems like a true believer to me (as do many of the other Fife witnesses). I don’t know whether she genuinely believes she is being kind, but she certainly has a huge drive to be seen as kind. I think a combination of low empathy, high ego, a desire for control & to be right, and apparently low honesty have created a massive blind spot when it comes to her own actions. I could be wrong and I’m no expert in human behaviour, but I have been watching proceedings and I can’t make fear fit with the responses I saw.

Yeh. There were a lot of sleep deprived parents in the fb groups I was in that were getting the same kool-aid dripped regularly. I still think about some of them, and their kids, who they passed the ideology on to. I had PTSD from childbirth, I was in a sorry state. Thankful for MN.

As I've just been paid I would like to do a bit of gardening today - just to ensure my efforts go in the right direction, can someone please remind me of the details of Faye (as I can't recall her surname)? Thank you.

There are never detriments to the people who engage in this egregious behaviour. It usually works out well for them and will continue to do so.

They don’t have to chip in for any costs. There are no penalties for being revealed as a liar, fraud or bully (see Michalak tribunal). You still receive promotions, pick up honours for public service and lucrative public appointments.