NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

This is somewhat bizarre. NC Is not allowed to say that NHSF would view SP's GC views, or, particularly NC's views, as heresy, because somehow it impunges JR.

I don't think the judge is up to mischief, he just wants things to continue with as few rows in his court as possibly, when, in his view, the rows aren't actually necessary in NC advancing her case.

TT's third part of the mornings tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1948340726548353398.html

Re: their investigation being so poor:

I was a claimant in a tribunal involving NHS sexual harassment and bullying. In my case, the hospital deleted all of the email evidence (all emails from me, all emails from HR partner) and said that they were permanently deleted and not recoverable in any way. They also refused to record the investigation interviews (I asked to have mine recorded and was told it was against policy) and then misrepresented what was said in the interview to avoid blame. They circled wagons, deleted evidence, missed all of their own deadlines per policy, and acted completely inhumanely to me, knowing they were in the wrong.

This is all to say: absolutely wild shit happens all the time and no one is held accountable. I hope NHS-F is held accountable.

They're all getting a bit hangry😀

If JR is setting up for an appeal, then the judge needs to deal with her objections in such a way that an appeal will be dismissed surely? Thus NC is being challenged accordingly. But IANAL.

The bundle is shared beforehand but they shouldn’t discuss with others.

The point being that you shouldn’t collide with others or change your testimony according to others.

By the time the bundle is prepared all witness statements will have been taken and signed off on by witnesses so you can’t really amend yours after seeing the bundle.

You are still not allowed to discuss what you see in the bundle with others.

worth also remembering that the bundle is now 1700 pages long — originally 700. It’s unlikely the majority will have studies it beyond the most relevant to them.

I think LM has been the only one who has studies the majority of it.

Yes, there are two factors here:

The hierarchy of the medical profession - KS says doctors should be believed by default because they have a code of conduct, but doesn't make the same assumption about nurses who are also professionals.

Social class.

I liked the bit where Naomi said she would have finished by now if not for JR objections. 😂

I hope you won your case?

I think he doesn’t understand the word heresy.

I'm confused - I didn't read TT as NC accusing JR of heresy, I thought she was saying that SP saying - and NC repeating - that DrU is a man was regarded as heresy by NHSF. Resulting in all this.

I don't see it as being directed at JR.

I know the public sector's little ways. When I correspond about remotely sensitive issues that could come back to bite me on the arse - and I'm very careful what I say through my workplace servers - I forward the whole exchange to a separate email address.

Middle class occupation unless it's changed. I remember being rather amused that the day I qualified I seemingly went from working class to middle.

Edit-..not that the salary afforded me a middle class lifestyle

If KS had tackled the issue of where DU was to change and pee instead of accepting his declaration that there hadn’t been a problem before, this whole issue wouldn’t have happened. And she knows it. The question arises why did she accept it, did she perhaps know that DU had form for aggressive boundary pushing in his previous role elsewhere and didn’t fancy being on the sharp end of his pointy stick . If DU had been employed by another hospital anywhere in Scotland I imagine that the message had been informally transmitted pdq that DU was toxic and didn’t care who got pushed over just as long as DUs personal beliefs weren’t compromised.

If I understood correctly, the issue was that NC's phrase was something like "the heresy that so exercised Miss Russell" and, in the judge's interpretation at least, the issue with that is that it suggests (correctly!) that Miss Russell herself, personally, is an adherent of the religion against which the heresy was committed. She's doing a job presenting her clients' case, and NC shouldn't have needled her on a personal level.

@Largesso It was said earlier that Scotland dont do witness statements. Seeing the bundle is therefore very likely to change evidence.

He is. His approach is that NC doesn't necessarily have to argue her case in this way, that is causing JR to get up on as many high horses as she can, when there'd be a less (in his view) aggravating way to do it.

It just shows that controlling the words people use is at the root of controlling their thinking. Which is why we must be able to say DU is a man. He is and we must be able to say so.

That’s funny, I’ve always regraded it as working class profession because I’m working class and it was what a lot of the girls my age aspired to (and now are). I’m mid 30s if that makes any difference.

Saying ix wasn't compromised because she didn't know is surely akin to saying a trial was fair because the judge didn't know the jury was paid off...right?? Does AG just think everyone else in the world are NPC's, activated by her speaking to them?

Furthermore, just to add to the chorus of NC stans, she is fantastic. I read the Holyrood mag interview with her and thought...that's who I want to be when I grow up. WWNCD ✊

I think she was wanting to interrupt the questioning.

That is correct. JR is very clearly signalling her grounds for appeal (if her client wants) and it reflects extremely poorly on the Judge if his judgement is successfully appealed on prcedural fairness grounds.

If the Judge reins in NC, that's actually a good sign. The more he gives way to the respondents, the more it suggests he's already decided the outcome and he's protecting his judgment from their appeal.

The power dynamic between counsel and bench is really interesting!

I suspect it's both.

It has changed during SP's career, surely? It's only fairly recently that nursing has become an all-graduate profession. (When I say fairly recently, I mean during my adult lifetime, and I'm old... someone can look it up I'm sure)
ETA yes, 2009 https://memoriesofnursing.uk/articles/a-brief-history-of-nursing-in-the-uk

Agreed.