NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

NC certainly knows all the almost indetectible disingenuous tricks.

“NC - its reasonable re exchanges that exchange at 441, the bland one, was to create a misleading paper trail”

She’s claiming it’s confusing the witnesses. But AG is being asked questions of fact. A bit of misgendering is irrelevant.

NC was calling herself a heretic according to some.

To think there was a time I didn’t know the legal use of the word ‘bundle’.

Sweet summer child that I was, back when men were men, and small green creatures from Alpha Centauri were small green creatures from Alpha Centauri.

The SC judgement in FWS explicitly mentions changing rooms.

NC - bc SP was guilty of heresy that DU is a man
JR objects - offensive to do what NC is doing in particular to call DU a man. DU is not a man. Im concerned to the latitude given to NC to be so offensive in court. [Disagreement about the objection]
😁

From TT

NC - I suggest u didnt loop in admin team was bc u knew u shouldn't be meeting up with witness to discuss notes?

VROOM VROOM

AG - dont agree

NC - did u push back on any of the changes?
AG - mostly grammar

Fifer : leave ma gran oot ay this! Sorry ca resist a classic like ken.

NC - its reasonable re exchanges that exchange at 441, the bland one, was to create a misleading paper trail

VROOM VROOM

AG - dont agree

NC - symptomatic to protect DU against all costs?

VROOM VROOM

AG - dont agree

Fifer : Ange is no at a feart by the engine roarin in her ear, she's either hellae brave, or thinks it's the Kirkcaldy Bus come tae tak her hame.

NC - bc SP was guilty of heresy that DU is a man
JR objects - offensive to do what NC is doing in particular to call DU a man. DU is not a man. Im concerned to the latitude given to NC to be so offensive in court.

[Disagreement about the objection]

Bit ae Midge Ure while we wait

Oh happy days!

Shoot me now!

It's shorthand ffs

Yes, both sides share documents. That does not mean that a witness should be allowed to read all the documents. The court wants their actual evidence, not some version that has been twisted to try and match what they have seen in the bundle.

Keep imagining Kate Serle as the patronising Consultant from Getting On 😬

The heretic discussion will stretch over lunch it seems!

J Is getting hangry

passes Judge a fresh pillow to scream into

Yes. She can say the tribunal wasn't run fairly because the judge allowed NC's "misgendering" which prevented the witness from giving proper evidence. She's clearly got an eye on the appeal by now.

From TT

J - Youre suggesting JR was a heretic
NC - perhaps I should put more clearly

J - I dont think it helps to involve JR'S earlier statement

NC - two things on that. No way was that accusing JR of heresy. Its objecting to what the board regards as a heresy.

The relief from the witness seat is palpable. For a minute NC's steady and unwavering gaze is broken while she deals with the cross talk in her court room. Ah mean Big Sond's court room.

NC - Im suggesting the manner which case is put for the board that my recognition DU is a man is heretical is aligned with the oatds treatment of SP who was also treated as a heretic

J - Big Sond is struggling to catch up. What do u mean by heresy

NC - a required creed

from Herald
12:56pm
On May 23, Dr Upton said they were happy with the notes of the interview that had been provided by investigators.
Ms Cunningham suggests that "bland exchange" suggests there had been no earlier drafts. This was "misleading", she said.
But on May 14, Dr Upton asked for guidance on how they could make "editorial changes" to the interview notes.
Ms Glancey said she witnesses were allowed to do this.
Dr Upton then asks to listen to the transcription - but it had been deleted after the notes were typed.
A Teams meeting followed to discuss, but no notes were taken.
Ms Cunningham suggests this was done to avoid a "trail" of messages.
Ms Glancey said no. She said she just prefers to call people.
She admits that this was the first time a witness had asked to review notes - but she said that they were "mostly" grammar changes.
Ms Glancey rejected the claim that there was a "deliberate attempt to create a misleading paper trail".

NC - Im suggesting the manner which case is put for the board that my recognition DU is a man is heretical is aligned with the oatds treatment of SP who was also treated as a heretic
J - struggling to catch up. What do u mean by heresy
NC - a required creed

The Judge is being even handed.

JR is advocating for her client and is free to do that within the rules.

NC was needling JR for her interventions.

HERETIC!
I have a wonderful HERETIC badge designed by Jess de Wahl.

I'm getting a bit lost now. Seems like judge is telling Naomi off but she's standing her ground

JR flipped out calling Naomi offensive and again for repeatedly calling Upton a man.

Judge defending JR it seems. Seems to be accusing NC of personally attacking JR because she called her HERETIC. Accused her of heresy.

Lunch back at 2 looking to finish at 4

I wondered that too. It's a very sudden stalling mechanism as of yesterday, notably at a point where her side is rapidly losing ground. NC seems in calm but sure control of how the narrative is transpiring (esp. as regards the meta-data ...)

Given protocols of address were decided months ago it's an odd intervention to be making at this particular point.

I wondered earlier if Fife was deliberately trying to lose this case through messing with evidence or some such, so that it could later say it didn't lose on the grounds of what it's actually accused of and therefore those allegations aren't sound.

From TT

J - what do u mean by creed? Its not in EA10
NC - I must be able to use words that arent in EA10

J - so its a gloss. Youre entitled to put gloss on Rs but I'm concerned about Rs counsel. It's involving someone advocating for their client.

J - Would u like time to think about this over lunch? [Converse about time to come back] We will come back at 2pm. [HEARING ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH]

Back at 2pm