NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

Just raising my hand to say I don't give a stuff about handbags. I don't think I own one. But nonetheless, I am conscientious and I do pay attention to detail 😀

Wrong when she leaves the CR x2, wrong when she stays in the CR (the incident). Can they hear themselves?

And AG has stayed she didn't see anything wrong with Sandie removing herself

They seem to genuinely believe that not changing in front of someone/choosing to leave the room is bullying and harassment. Bizarre.

from herald
10:43am
Ms Glancey said she chose not to include reports of other incidents between Dr Upton and Ms Peggie in the changing rooms.
She said this was because it simply said that Ms Peggie left the room when Dr Upton entered.
There was no "ill manner" in this exchange and since Ms Peggie chose to remove herself from the situation, she chose not to include it.

From TT

JR - final letter 15th May, you state avoid discussing, why
AG - standard template letter, encourage all involved in ix's not to discuss other than with us, or union rep, for fairness.

Fifer : aye, it widnae be kind tae ask hoo that worked oot for them. The time tae shut the doocote hatch is afore they've flewn off tae Kennowa ken?

JR - 353 - you asked DU for more info on patient info, she gives more info on that
JR - 24th may, 849, email between you and the health care worker involved in one incident. Meeting held and we see at 483, 16th July. 361 19th July you went to SP to ask she come to ix meeting. 4 allegations. 3 looked at and why the 4th?
AG - reiterating ???

The implication being that SP must only do the things that would please Upton. So be in the changing room or not according to what he wants. This is not a good look.

She left cr, presumably without saying anything, when she saw DU was there, which hurt his feelings. Hard to characterise this as misconduct. Reasonable to leave a situation in which you feel uncomfortable.

Especially when they're also trying to state her presence was intimidating to Upton.

If it's so intimidating, why was it not the right thing for her to leave?

from herald
10:49am
Ms Glancey Dr Upton for more information on the patient safety incidents in May.
We now hear that Ms Glancey interviewed the healthcare worker - Rehana Ashraf - who overseen the discussion between Dr Upton and Ms Peggie.
This incident alleges that Ms Peggie refused to communicate with Dr Upton despite a patient walking out of emergency care without being seen.
May 15th, all parties are asked to avoid discussing the case except with union representatives and investigators.

my experience of the public sector is that they can take a very long time. I’ve seen social workers put on restricted duties or suspended for 18 months or more pending investigation. It’s not unusual - once the person is out of the workplace there’s no immediate risk and things just drift along.

From TT

AG - xmas incident
JR - involvement with miss peggie
AG - none really
JR - what did you enclose with letter?
AG - all of notes, except HCW notes as hadn't returned.
JR - those sent on when
AG - around 23rd August
JR - meeting on 16th
AG - yes
JR - what did you say about how SP address hte meeting
AG - what do you mean? union rep? Statement?
JR - you describe logistics, and you are entitled to trade union rep. what did you advise?
AG - could have RCN rep, had brought to meeting 9th may, could bring colleague instead

Fifer : RCN? Mair lik CTS (Chocolate Teapot Society). Worse than a man short they were.

AG - around 23rd August
JR - meeting on 16th

dec..jan...feb.. march..april...may...june...july...oh look now it's August!

It's a 'her'. And she knows, alright.

This was a long time ago now. There are few things I'm never willing to look past but this is one of them.

Since someone pointed it out, I can't stop seeing the queen Victoria style crown perched on JR's head 🙂‍↕️ 😀

I’m being a bit dense - can anyone tell me what MSF stands for?

I can understand that JR wants to explore that SP being in the changing room or not was ultimately handled correctly according to what AG is saying, so that's a positive, but in another part of JR's case she's getting witnesses to talk about this behaviour being bullying and harassment.

I do wonder if she was so concerned about doing the 'right thing' for a tricky manage that she was just completely blind to the other side.

She committed these things to email thinking 'look how excellent and fair I am being' and so didn't involve HR because she was certain she'd gone over and above in her support.

I work with academics (and some clinicians) and they are a group who cannot be told in a way you would in other organisation - and who are promoted to positions of power without the type of management experience that means you see seeking advice before acting as the default.

From TT

JR - you ref a written statemetn - why
AG - you are entitled to write a written statement, I'd not had one, a reminder
JR - 509 - is that statement, says should be considered with interview etc did she have help with statement
AG - dont know
JR - meeting didnt go ahead
AG -no
JR -w as it rearranged?
AG - yes, had arranged a second date was 12th aug, on phone said can you come 12th to SP, had been in with SF and knew his availability. But SP wanted to look over paperwork and asked for later
JR - meeting arranged for 30th august went ahead

Worry not! Almost every person my age I've spoken to about this one-on-one (I'm not very fun at parties) has wound up agreeing with me in some capacity. People are just too scared to be vocal about it. (Including me: I really admire Connie Shaw for how outspoken she is online. I could NEVER! Parents would disown me)

Very obvious Clash earworm is landing

I think it's the initials of an HR person - Michelle somebody.

September!

Trying to have her cake and eat it. SP leaves the CR - she’s a cow judge, harming BU
AG ignores for IX - but if you disagree there’s no detriment because of AG’s approach.

From TT

JR - 2 sets notes from that caroline summerville and stuart frasers
AG - yes
JR - CS notes sent to SP on 9th Sept, why delay AG - we all write notes, meeting recorded, CS wrote up, I looked over along with my notes and check with MSF on hols till 8th. ASAP checked with her and sent over
JR - correspondence with DU 8th Sept, about?
AG - diff of opinion over whether DU washing hands then got changed, it came up in conv with SP, asked DU for version of events
JR - to SP 27th Sept, email arranging further meeting 14th Oct
AG - to discuss info from DU