NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

Another Break 10 minutes

I'd like 'GO AWAY HYPOTHETICAL PETE' on mine, please. Black or navy, scoop neck, thx.

Hideous.

I've just missed the last 5 minutes. Something being disputed about the Bryson thing.

Uh yeh. Just a few, yeh. 😄

Incidentally not sure what white bigot bit of me even means, but it's a bit racist itself to assume the other leg, arm, forearm isn't racist.

I don't agree that the agreed facts state SP spoke about Isla Bryson. To me it reads that SP talked about the prison situation then after the comma the prison situation is explained as relating to Isla Bryson.

From TT

J - asking about another witness testimony, our job to assess others testimony.
NC - can deal in submissions with withdrawing agreement
J - will have to look at whether and how to do that.
NC - may be about exact interpretations, agreed facts give a gloss, don't say SP refered to rapist, only sitn and then explains it.
J - cannot take evidence on agreed fact, need a break. 10 mins

She's seeing tomorrow's headlines.

'Yet another Fife doctor can't tell anyone's sex'.

I am a bit confused about the process.

If one side starts crying does the other side have to say sorry and concede?

Even if SP had said this is ridiculous it's exactly like isla bryson in women's prisons, she hasn't said I think you're a rapist, she's said it's relatable to a high profile case of men being where they don't belong.

@RabbitFurCoat

They in no way resemble hobbit feet!

KS is an outstanding example of the epistemic class and where luxury beliefs, suicidal empathy and preference falsification land not only you but your entire profession and the organisation that employs you.

I've not watched any of the proceedings so can't comment on KS in real life but I would say that to survive as ED you need to be very tough, decisive and not afraid to be ruthless in clinical decision making. As a consultant KS will be very used to having their word accepted and obeyed. The buck stops with her for any decisions made by juniors/nurses/AHP on her shift. So I think she is both doubling down AND has realised overnight that she could be subject to fitness to practice proceedings for how she has behaved plus the attempted cover up.

Judge has gone away to scream into a pillow.

Of course. Them's the rules.

😬

My dog walking boots have git big holes in them so mine are often dirty hobbit feet.

Problem is JR was able to read from once piece of testimony that SP did mention Bryson. Others said she just mentioned prison, but bryson ref is on the record.
I think that was an own goal by NC.

NC - 720 - sorry put previous qu wrongly. DU's evidence was it's like the situation in the prisons, DU own account was situation in prisons. Not about a rapist, its about a place where women can expect F only spae
JR - no it's agreed bryson was mentioned.
J - do you have uncontested facts doc? Read out details
JR - C refered to prison situation, Bryson Graham case. Agreed not disputed.

What is JR playing at. Upton has already said that she never mentioned Isla Bryson. He just assumed she was referring to IB

Contemporaneous thoughts as observer, posted much later on so as not to breach court rules.

Oh God.

NC begins speaking in excitement, far too fast, slightly humorous request re: starting again slower

KS sounds pissed off, defiant, body language of sulky teenager in the Head's office.

NC You are asking the tribunal believe that you are surprisingly incompetent aren't you?

NC: Begins to mention Rhianna's testimony - KS turns to Judge "I am worried about someone who doesnt want to be involved." KS sobbing. Gone to break. To return when KS ready.

So KS is worried about having brought into this someone who has already given a statement

Rhianna is already on the right side of history.

KS needs to think about wtf she was doing, as a whiter-than-pale middle class professional, trying to coopt the experience of the 'mixed race care worker' in the first place. When she thought it was in her favour to do so, she didn't hesitate to use her as a prop and weapon.

Hope Dr Upton will return the favour and make efforts to console KS after this sad distressing FAFO day is done.

Back in room NC on fire

KS enunciating angrily and nodding head for emphasis. Definitely can't have been spoken to like this before.

KS schooling NC on kindness and law and seems to really believe what she says. Drains cup of water while NC pauses.

Oh PETE IS BACK

JR objecting on grounds that Dr Upton not a man

NC and J clarify that Pete is in the CR and is a man.

I think I might apply to go to medical school.

I'd thought that was quite complicated but I never knew you could make stuff up there, either.

I appreciate the humour so so much here. TY folks.

The PC of gender reassignment is proposing to undergo, undergoing, or having undergone a process or part of a process of changing from one gender to the other.
what counts as 'a process' is unspecified. Possession of a GRC, or even proposing to get a GRC, is not a requirement.

From my reading, something written down mentions Bryson, and this is an ‘agreed fact’.

But DU went against this is in x, but it’s still classed as agreed fact.
Now NC is asking to withdraw agreement to this fact, and J has asked for 10 min break?

Is that right?

Today’s episode is more spicy than i anticipated it would be. Given KS’s confidence yesterday, I didn’t expect her to shed tears today. NC is definitely getting closer to her mic drop ending.