NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

From TT

NC - page 270 please. 2nd email is DU to you in small hours Xmas am soon after incident when he got home. Look at summary para, focus first on first 9 lines. Starting myself and another, ending told I can change here. Reread?
KS - yes
NC - on that part, what's happened upto then. Woman found man in CR told him not to be there because hes a man. He's insisted he's entitled to be there, focus on that.
JR - unfair premise, DU is not a man, a she's a TW
NC - ..
J - there was an objection
NC - DU is a TW and so DU is a man. Legally speaking in FWS EQA he's a man
JR - FWS not agreed
J - we need to hear submissions

Fifer : NC draps the Loddie Bomb. Twa thoosand poonder.

J - put it differently
NC - a woman found a trans ID man in F CR, she said he shouldn't be there, he said he's entitled to. That in your view is enough to be harassment and a HI.
KS - not those 9 lines no
NC - she was in her rights to object
KS - not in that manner DU described
NC - just those 9 lines, anything in her manner in those 9 lines makes it HI and harassment.
KS - fact SP waited for DU to leave cubicle, waited for others to leave and Du come out and approached her and said offensive things like you shouldn't be here you aren't a woman repeated
NC - you said that's offensive
KS - it is offensive to a TW
NC - are you saying this hangs on SP waiting for her to come out of the cubicle or that she waited
KS - both are offensive and objectionable
NC - just saying you're a man and shouldn't be her eisenough

Fifer : hings gettin a bit above ma pay grade here. Wheeshtin the noo. Mooth shut, lugs open.

JR doesn't want Pete in the room. Ironic .

How does Dr Searle know which support worker was involved in this alleged three way chat between SP & DU when DU doesn't know who they were & SP doesn't recall the incident happening?
I try & learn names but I'm somewhat sceptical of a consultant in a large dept knowing all names of all the Healthcare assistant and when they were on shift.

There’s a line from a murder movie about a surgeon . In it he says “I don’t think I’m god… I am god!”

it’s always stuck with me as it nails the whole doctor narcissism thing.

I know, it's bloody ridiculous!

From TT

KS - policy said intimidating or offensive in way you say, that's enough. If everyone was kind and said things another say there was no need for it to come to this.
NC - think briefly about another person, not a man who thinks/wishes he was a woman - a man in mans clothes - Pete

The crowd goes wild. Some wag has remixed Bob The Builder with Pete The Plumber. "Can he drap them, yes he can!"

Just quoting BeLemonNow from previous thread:
Also peeved as a mixed race person. We've heard everyone (mainly white) were discussing/agreeing how racist Sandie was and presumably telling any new ethnic minority employees to watch out.
Creates an intimidating workplace environment for ethnic minorities and actually works to condone racism, as seemingly someone who has witnessed/known issue it hasn't tackled and resolved it. Despite that being i.e. in the NMC code of conduct that makes ppl complicit.
Obviously I don't know is Sandie is racist or not, none of us can see inside their head but this isn't an acceptable environment.

Completely agree with this. I have personally had a very unpleasant experience with an activist white colleague determined to make me see how racist my institution is. It made me very aware of my skin colour, something which hadn't been an issue since I was at school, dealing with actual racists - so it was actually very triggering. The only racism I've actually experienced in current workplace was from that activist colleague who insisted on drawing attention to my difference through a whole programme of workshops that I was forced to sit in, the only non-white person in the room, while activist colleague performed their self-serving activism.

I know you're all excitd about Pete, but I want to highlight thi
KS - policy said intimidating or offensive in way you say, that's enough. If everyone was kind and said things another say there was no need for it to come to this

This is a grown, professional woman speaking! She sounds more like a Victorian nursemaid talking, more in sorrow than in anger, to her little charges about Being Kind!

PETE!

Poor old pervy Pete

We've had the need for everyone to 'be kind' <stamps bingo card>

Ref protected characteristic, I'm given to understand that gender identity is not a PC, only gender reassignment i.e. the possession of a GRC. Which we know DU didn't have.

And we have Pete the Plumber - I'm nearly at full house!

Hurrah Pete is back! In my view, especially at an early stage in transition and wearing scrubs, Dr. Upton is visually indistinguishable from Sandie's perspective to any man wearing scrubs and with long hair.

Edit: both will be correctly perceived by her at a fundamental brain level as being male and a threat and kick off fight or flight.

It makes no sense that the latter situation from TRA are allowed to be upset, embarrassed and in the former they are a bigot. How Dr. Upton may or may not feel has no relevance to the actual situation Sandie finds herself in.

God, KS really is one of those 'be kind at all costs, we must be kind!' morons.

JR keeps wittering on about DU not being a man. Give it a rest love, YES HE IS.

Oh... Good..KS saying Pete can't be there and Sandie could say go away pete. But can't say that to Upton because he says he's a woman.

But NC argues there's no legal or material difference between the 2 males. And will take it up in submissions.

Aka secondary gain and dopamine hits.
So similar to the dopamine hits KS and others acquired by constantly extolling their personal values of kindness, integrity etc.
If you have to tell people about your values it’s because they’re not apparent from your usual interactions with them. Or indeed from your appearance as a witness in what is a potentially career-ending process for someone.

Thanks for my first (& massive) LOL.

Comment from FWS on Twitter regarding JR's comment about EQA2010/SC judgement -

'Our ruling is not a hypothesis or contentious. It's straightforward. Upton is legally and biologically a man. It isn't for Jane Russell to relitigate this at a tribunal.'

From -

https://x.com/ForWomenScot/status/1948014896139956437

So have I got this right? A make believe witness has just been cited for the bloke who believes he is a woman..

Can we have reality back, please?

Fucking hell! I want to shake this woman and tell her to wake up.

Sorry to have to ask, but: who is Pete?

JR objecting saying DU is NOT obviously a Man.

😱

NC: no legal difference between Pete and DrU, SP stood her ground.
KS's reply is based on what DrU said SP's manner was.

We must all take our clothes off in the changing rooms in front of the menz to keep them happy, and smile sweetly whilst doing so.

There weren't any tears yesterday. Just arrogance what's changed?

Overt to covert narcissism. See also: drama triangle.