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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 14:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

OP posts:
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MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 22:20

Joboomer · 23/07/2025 22:17

LOL. Some of us might have been trying on clothes after a shopping trip.

You mean all the clothes we ordered online during downtime at the trib?😁

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 23/07/2025 22:22

THEDEACON · 23/07/2025 19:31

Personally I think SP is an unpleasant person who is certainly transphobic and may be racist Interestingly she is not supported by the Royal College of Nursing

Come now Judge - you must at least appear to have heard a little of the proceedings. .

SwivelEyedAndProud · 23/07/2025 22:24

I actually have some sympathy for KS. I can find precisely NOTHING in my NHS email. And I don't delete anything, ever, in case I need it.

I think if my reputation depended on it, I might develop some more searching skills. But for your jobbing Dr, it never seems very intuitive.

AnnaMagnani · 23/07/2025 22:26

BettyBooper · 23/07/2025 22:07

But that's why it should go to IT to look at. Was your organisation one that had responsibility for retaining data? Those that do archive everything.

You can't on the one hand be responsible for FOI requests and on the other delete everything after 6 months.

FOI requests are a whole other set of madness.

My specialty went through a phase of having a lot of FOIs. Back when it was paper notes and we barely did any data collection anyway, especially as I am in a notoriously underfunded specialty.

I'd just get sent them and be expected to magic the figures out of my arse.

Eventually it dawned on me that it was OK to say they were 'overly burdensome'. So that was it, I bumped every single one back with no further thought.

The Trust bizarrely didn't seem to have an issue either way or any concept of telling me what support there was out there to assist with these.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 23/07/2025 22:26

I have just caught up.
My golly, Fife aren't doing themselves any favours, are they.

I still can't get over these qualified, experienced doctors who don't seem to believe in biological sex. It's mind-boggling. WTF?

2Rebecca · 23/07/2025 22:28

I created folders in my NHS email that I put important stuff in as you get so much spammy nonsense. The health board sent most of the non clinical nonsense. They loved their weekly newsletters full of management speak buzz words

Joboomer · 23/07/2025 22:28

A system like a hospital would also be on it's guard against fraudulent extra emails being introduced as if been in place a long time not only deletions.

Londonmummy66 · 23/07/2025 22:41

THEDEACON · 23/07/2025 19:31

Personally I think SP is an unpleasant person who is certainly transphobic and may be racist Interestingly she is not supported by the Royal College of Nursing

Hello Beth - got a new user name Tandora?

RedNine · 23/07/2025 22:48

Londonmummy66 · 23/07/2025 22:41

Hello Beth - got a new user name Tandora?

Remember to think about whether engaging with a possible bad faith poster is helpful in these threads.

KittyWilkinson · 23/07/2025 22:48

Thanks so much @nauticant and everyone for your reporting. Finally, I've caught up with today. The twists and turns are just endless. I'm so glad that KS was revealed as a person of dubious ethics.

Those HR emails! Perhaps HR would make a better job of sexing patients given that these medics seem to struggle with basic biology.

INeedAPensieve · 23/07/2025 22:52

I'm nearly caught up!!! Wow I've spent hours reading through it all tonight. My eyes are sore.

So, basically today KS showed herself up for what she is? A big liar big girls pants on fire?

It's mind boggling a consultant Dr would say this kind of shit.

I'm in the office tomorrow so won't be able to catch up much so will probably miss two more threads. That'll be my Thur night sorted! Thanks again to @nauticant for the admin of this and to all the really helpful and interesting comments so far.

BeLemonNow · 23/07/2025 22:56

I'm struggling to see why HR is being called as a defense witness from these emails. They didn't treat Sandie worse than anyone else?!

Lunde · 23/07/2025 23:00

BeLemonNow · 23/07/2025 22:56

I'm struggling to see why HR is being called as a defense witness from these emails. They didn't treat Sandie worse than anyone else?!

I don't quite understand what you mean? The respondents (Fife and DU) are trying to show that the disciplinary process against SP was carried out fairly

So HR is an obvious witness for them

GailBlancheViola · 23/07/2025 23:08

SerafinasGoose · 23/07/2025 22:00

I read that somewhere but didn't comment as it was unverified.

But if JR really did say this - a KC supposedly expected to uphold the standards of her profession - surely she should face some form of professional sanction for that conduct?

That said, I've seen something of the way Bar Standards operate - not least what some of them do when out on the lash ...

Her deliberate and completely incorrect pronunciation of Maya Forstater's surname was pathetic, spiteful behaviour and imo the Judge should have pulled her up on it and made it clear he knew exactly what she was trying to do, not in open Court but behind losed doors and then if she did it again reprimanded in full view of the Court.

Totally unprofessional behaviour by a Barrister.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 23/07/2025 23:09

I seriously hope other trusts are taking notice of this tribunal. I would have thought they are with the amount of press coverage that it's receiving but I also think perhaps it's just wishful thinking.

Mollyollydolly · 23/07/2025 23:11

JK Rowling tweet tonight, Thought it belonged on the threads, it's a long one!

"The Sandie Peggie employment tribunal is currently exposing, as perhaps no court case to date has, the issue of class as it relates to the top-down imposition of gender identity ideology in the workplace. 'Diversity officer' Isla Bumba has now admitted in court that she didn't bother consulting the 1992 regulations guaranteeing single-sex spaces when she told a trans-identified male, Dr Beth Upton, to use the female changing room at the hospital where he was working. Bumba justified this decision with comments that I assume sounded really clever and convincing, inside her own head. 'I don’t know anything about Beth’s body. I didn’t at the time. I don’t now. I don’t need to know. But it wouldn’t be something that I would ever have the information of exactly what she is made of, biologically.' Kate Searle, a consultant in emergency medicine, backed Bumba up, expressing outrage on the witness stand that anyone would be so insensitive as to ask about Upton's chromosomes.
‘I could only imagine how upsetting and invasive a question that would be for Beth, and also not relevant to a colleague to ask another colleague. Beth identifies as female, and it does not matter what her chromosomes are to her.’ In Bumba and Searle's world, a belief that gender identity trumps biological sex is proof you're intellectually and morally superior to women like Sandie Peggie, so I'd imagine it's come as a shock to discover, in a blaze of public and press scrutiny, just how idiotic and cruel they appear to people outside their dinner party circle. When Upton, a 6' tall, 28-year-old ex-rugby playing male, claimed that a petite 50-year-old female nurse was making him feel 'unsafe', his word appears to have been taken as gospel. Searle, Bumba and management fell over themselves to coddle the middle-class doctor who shared their voguish post-modern views on gender. What did Sandie matter? She's just one of those ghastly uninformed bigots who still thinks sex is real and important - so embarrassingly gauche and simplistic! Whisper it - she probably drinks red wine with chicken, too.
According to
@tribunaltweets
, an emotional Searle blurted out on the stand 'I am kind.' This is not something genuinely kind people need to say. Genuinely kind people don't find themselves compelled to explain in court why they helped whip up a witch-hunt against a woman whose only crime was wanting to change her clothes without a man watching. Well, the nurse who was supposed to shuffle off in disgrace wasn't having it. Sandie Peggie refused to be sacrificed on the altar of elitist ideologues who believe themselves to be higher and better than she is. She fought back, for herself and for every other woman who's currently being silenced, persecuted and punished by a smug management class that preens itself on its virtue while imposing rampantly misogynistic policies on its workforce. Sandie Peggie is a heroine. The woman NHS Fife thought they could treat abominably without any consequences to themselves has succeeded in shining the brightest spotlight yet upon the brain rot and compassion deficit suffered by supposedly intelligent people when they embrace gender identity ideology. Women everywhere owe her a debt of thanks. Whatever the outcome of this tribunal, Sandie Peggie has already won."

https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1948126727193927901

https://x.com/tribunaltweets

Londonmummy66 · 23/07/2025 23:12

RedNine · 23/07/2025 22:48

Remember to think about whether engaging with a possible bad faith poster is helpful in these threads.

I did and thought a single mocking reply was worth it - so did several others if the reactions are an indicator

Beentooworriedtospeak · 23/07/2025 23:16

Someone at my work shared a celery soup recipie today.... I got ridiculously excited and asked if she had seen them all over mumsnet at the mo, you know what I was asking lol... she hadn't! Crashing disappointment!!!

DialSquare · 23/07/2025 23:17

Just came on to see if anyone has posted the JKR tweet (thanks @Mollyollydolly!). Such a brilliant tweet. Absolutely spot on.

Needspaceforlego · 23/07/2025 23:19

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 23/07/2025 23:09

I seriously hope other trusts are taking notice of this tribunal. I would have thought they are with the amount of press coverage that it's receiving but I also think perhaps it's just wishful thinking.

They might not take note at this stage - I'm sure they'll pay attention when the damages are awarded.

I also think the BMC might also change their tune, when you have Medical Consultants standing up in court not sure what sex they are, makes the whole profession look incompetent
There is also the issue of a man thinking he can treat a woman who's asked for single sex care
He can wear a dress if he wants, but it won't make him female.

Surely to God the RCN will wake up, either before or after Sandie gets them in court too? (Let the entertainment continue go Team Sandie)

Nurses are often subject to sexual harassment anyway, but to have a man watching women getting changed and they aren't allowed to complain is just wrong

Nessiesfoodprovider · 23/07/2025 23:24

Beentooworriedtospeak · 23/07/2025 23:16

Someone at my work shared a celery soup recipie today.... I got ridiculously excited and asked if she had seen them all over mumsnet at the mo, you know what I was asking lol... she hadn't! Crashing disappointment!!!

It's a niche audience. Which is a shame, as this case has the potential to be highly influential in terms of direction of travel in both the consumption of celery soup and gender ideology. Not to mention the need for a compulsory question in medical school interviews and as part of their finals just before qualifying, to make sure they understand properly how someone's sex is determined. People could die from being given incorrect treatment in an emergency in hospital. They may already have done so.

Needspaceforlego · 23/07/2025 23:26

@Mollyollydolly
Thankyou for sharing JKR message

She is an amazing woman, I didn't really think about the class element of this until the last few days

You know when you think you are at the top of the mountain ⛰️

And yes Sandie is an absolute hero, who deserves the best people on her Team NC, CE, GM & Her Magical backer

Scout2016 · 23/07/2025 23:27

Am I right that the mixed race staff member is Rihanna, and is the nurse Sandie spoke to when she was heartlessly not waving back at Upton?

I thought the argument was the contrast between how Sandie was talking to (being nice to) Rihanna, while (being a horrid meanie by) not talking to Upton evidenced her transphobia? But now they are arguing that, despite having previously used the way Sandie interacted with Rihanna in a positive way as evidence she treated Upton differently, she's actually a massive racist that Rihanna is fearful of?

IIRC, Sandie was already in the middle of telling Rihanna the necessary information when Upton joined them, and her crime was not waving back at him and starting what she had just said again from the beginning. Which just amounted to (paraphrasing) Rihanna "that patient has left, does that worry you?" Sandie "no it doesn't."

I'm also thinking, Upton hadn't been there long, these doctors get rotated and aren't ever around long, comparatively. I don't know how much I'd invest in getting to know someone who would be gone soon, and Sandie would have had many come and go over 30 years. Whereas Rihanna and Sandie had maybe worked together for a good while and had an established working relationship?

JamMakingWannaBe · 23/07/2025 23:35

Could @prh47bridgeor any other legal bods answer a question for me please:
HYPOTHETICALLY IF NC has in the bundle some metadata evidence of the disputed email chain, when a witness says, "you can't prove it", is it procedure to say, "well yes actually I can - can everyone please refer to Doc. 345..." OR is she waiting for evidence of the IT Technician to dispute the witness's testimony?

moto748e · 23/07/2025 23:36

Needspaceforlego · 23/07/2025 23:26

@Mollyollydolly
Thankyou for sharing JKR message

She is an amazing woman, I didn't really think about the class element of this until the last few days

You know when you think you are at the top of the mountain ⛰️

And yes Sandie is an absolute hero, who deserves the best people on her Team NC, CE, GM & Her Magical backer

Edited

And yet the Left (with a very few exceptions) somehow didn't.

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