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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 14:23

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

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CassOle · 23/07/2025 20:56

Therefore, the NHS losing a good nurse due to the ideological position that gender is more important than sex (and therefore, transwomen - biological males - should use the female changing room, when the nurse in question wants a single-sex changing room, which is supported by the EA2010) is not an unfair thing to comment about this case.

CriticalCondition · 23/07/2025 20:57

I do wonder if a PP who said KS may be 'in love' is on to something. Her reactions to him are so emotional. Not something you'd expect from a senior colleague, even one with the job of overseeing his wellbeing as well as his clinical performance. She's stressed over and over again she's a clinician. But where's the logical, detached, evidence-based approach to this problem?

She seems almost bewitched by him.

ThatCyanCat · 23/07/2025 20:57

CassOle · 23/07/2025 20:56

Therefore, the NHS losing a good nurse due to the ideological position that gender is more important than sex (and therefore, transwomen - biological males - should use the female changing room, when the nurse in question wants a single-sex changing room, which is supported by the EA2010) is not an unfair thing to comment about this case.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

YouCantProveIt · 23/07/2025 20:58

Conxis · 23/07/2025 20:47

How have they got hold of the bundle? Is it published somewhere?

There is a bundle you can go and look at in Dundee. You are watched while you look at it. Some folks write out the bundle contents then share it online. Maya from Sex Matters released the Searle emails.

This group have done us a solid ahead of tomorrow. It’s time intensive so we aren’t getting lots of info.

Largesso · 23/07/2025 20:58

CriticalCondition · 23/07/2025 20:57

I do wonder if a PP who said KS may be 'in love' is on to something. Her reactions to him are so emotional. Not something you'd expect from a senior colleague, even one with the job of overseeing his wellbeing as well as his clinical performance. She's stressed over and over again she's a clinician. But where's the logical, detached, evidence-based approach to this problem?

She seems almost bewitched by him.

I think NC said it well in her cross - I can’t remember the exact phrasing and can’t be bothered looking it up but it was along the lines of she was using it as an opportunity to enhance her own status.

YouCantProveIt · 23/07/2025 21:02

CriticalCondition · 23/07/2025 20:57

I do wonder if a PP who said KS may be 'in love' is on to something. Her reactions to him are so emotional. Not something you'd expect from a senior colleague, even one with the job of overseeing his wellbeing as well as his clinical performance. She's stressed over and over again she's a clinician. But where's the logical, detached, evidence-based approach to this problem?

She seems almost bewitched by him.

The Witchfinder General Searle cannot be bewitched. She hunts witches. Tracks them down, tarnishes their names and falsifies records.

(But yeah she did lose her shit over Upton. My theory is she hates Sandie from before. They were there for 9 years. There some level of beef 🥩. It’s not normal.)

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:02

CriticalCondition · 23/07/2025 20:57

I do wonder if a PP who said KS may be 'in love' is on to something. Her reactions to him are so emotional. Not something you'd expect from a senior colleague, even one with the job of overseeing his wellbeing as well as his clinical performance. She's stressed over and over again she's a clinician. But where's the logical, detached, evidence-based approach to this problem?

She seems almost bewitched by him.

It's not that she's in love with him.

She's in love with her vision of herself as his 'ally'. She's getting off on her own self righteousness as the progressive, kind, caring consultant, who's so much better than the rest of us.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 23/07/2025 21:03

Bet her consultant colleagues are thinking thank Christ that wasn’t me. I can imagine NHS departments thinking we don’t want Upton here on rotation - poison chalice

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:04

YouCantProveIt · 23/07/2025 20:58

There is a bundle you can go and look at in Dundee. You are watched while you look at it. Some folks write out the bundle contents then share it online. Maya from Sex Matters released the Searle emails.

This group have done us a solid ahead of tomorrow. It’s time intensive so we aren’t getting lots of info.

Wow, no wonder Fife are raging with Sex Matters 😂

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:05

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 23/07/2025 21:03

Bet her consultant colleagues are thinking thank Christ that wasn’t me. I can imagine NHS departments thinking we don’t want Upton here on rotation - poison chalice

💯

ThatCyanCat · 23/07/2025 21:05

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:02

It's not that she's in love with him.

She's in love with her vision of herself as his 'ally'. She's getting off on her own self righteousness as the progressive, kind, caring consultant, who's so much better than the rest of us.

The whole movement has a highly performative element to it.

AnnaMagnani · 23/07/2025 21:05

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:02

It's not that she's in love with him.

She's in love with her vision of herself as his 'ally'. She's getting off on her own self righteousness as the progressive, kind, caring consultant, who's so much better than the rest of us.

This.

It's actually proof she doesn't see him as a woman. She's falling over herself to stand up for her pet trans woman.

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 23/07/2025 21:06

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:02

It's not that she's in love with him.

She's in love with her vision of herself as his 'ally'. She's getting off on her own self righteousness as the progressive, kind, caring consultant, who's so much better than the rest of us.

Now we know what she meant when IB said she wasn't top ally. No one could compete with KS the allyest ally ever.

CriticalCondition · 23/07/2025 21:07

Largesso · 23/07/2025 20:58

I think NC said it well in her cross - I can’t remember the exact phrasing and can’t be bothered looking it up but it was along the lines of she was using it as an opportunity to enhance her own status.

I think NC was suggesting that she was taking an opportunity to ingratiate herself with 'higher ups' to further her career. Which may play into it too but it all feels more personal.

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:07

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 23/07/2025 21:06

Now we know what she meant when IB said she wasn't top ally. No one could compete with KS the allyest ally ever.

Interesting observation

ThreeWordHarpy · 23/07/2025 21:07

The HR emails describe them as “HR officers”. I have no idea on their level of seniority, but in my lengthy career it’s been my experience that the HR staff who are “at the coal face” interacting with the people in the rest of the organisation are usually well informed about the departments they cover and the relevant policies. And generally quite pleasant and efficient to deal with. The emails seem consistent with that.

I’ve found that the higher up ranks in HR tend to be less “people” persons, more political and strategic, and distant from the rest of the employees. I’ve encountered the odd good egg HR Director (for example during a very stressful redundancy process they took their time to speak to every single impacted person and had a literal open door policy for anyone to see them any time. Sadly for us, they were made redundant too) but they are in a minority for the ones I’ve encountered.

GreenFriedTomato · 23/07/2025 21:08

MarieDeGournay · 23/07/2025 17:36

JR - additional docs bundle 1703 - won't have seen, this is outcome of conduct hearing. Says whilst i find o conclusive evidence, satisfied caused distress, as a RN would expect for you to deescalate and suggest training which should be submitted to RNC for revalidation
JR - more thoughts?
KS - reflects what I said about taking through proper channels
J - we're done

Personally, I think JR reading out all that stuff from the disciplinary outcome was a cheap shot. Sandie was cleared but it was still a way for her to get in there (and the newspapers) that Sandie had acted improperly during the changing room incident and caused poor beth distress.

Again, nothing about the distress Upton was causing women. I really do hope that this will be acknowledged one day. It's all about the poor trans'woman' and women's feelings of distress don't exist or don't matter.

FKAT · 23/07/2025 21:09

Can I ask a question - why is it on the doctors to search their emails? DH had an SAR request by an aggrieved employee and the SAR was done by an external legal firm working with IT.

Why are doctors doing the search for their emails? That seems both a waste of skilled medical resource and huge potential for corruption*

*hearsay
**as above

DuesToTheDirt · 23/07/2025 21:11

@THEDEACON

Unions are shite on trans issues - many support trans women over women. (See also UCU, who are "calling for employers to support the right to use gendered facilities which match gender identities (44) and will write to Wes Streeting condemning the findings and methods of the Cass Report (47)." https://www.ucu.org.uk/article/14034/UCU-reaffirms-commitment-to-trans-rights. Unison are spending their time and money telling people how to help trans people. "More than 7,000 members have received training on becoming a good ally to trans people." https://www.unison.org.uk/news/article/2025/05/the-recent-supreme-court-judgment/.

Women, though? Who cares. "Gendered facilities" aka "mixed sex" are so much better for the trans-identifying males.

"Transphobic". What the hell does that mean? There is no evidence that SP had any issue with DU apart from being forced to share a changing room. Is it "transphobic" not to want to share changing facilities with the opposite sex. Was SP "unpleasant" for waiting outside the changing room while DU was in there? After all, this is what the UCU terms a "microaggression". Hmm And is it "transphobic" to want privacy from males while dealing with menstrual flooding?

"Racist"? Unproven gossip, and in any case completely irrelevant.

UCU reaffirms commitment to trans rights

The University and College Union (UCU) today (Monday 26 May) overwhelmingly voted to stand with the trans community. Delegates attending the union's congress backed four motions (44,45,46,47) that committed the union to fight back against unprecedented...

https://www.ucu.org.uk/article/14034/UCU-reaffirms-commitment-to-trans-rights

NebulousSupportPostcard · 23/07/2025 21:12

sweetsardineface · 23/07/2025 19:41

😮

BBC says "Under questioning from Ms Peggie's lawyer at a tribunal, Dr Kate Searle admitted that talking to the witness had been a "flagrant breach" of previous warnings not to discuss the case.
But she denied claims that she "left confidentiality in ruins" with her actions."

I thought KS admitted confidentiality was left in ruins?

Needspaceforlego · 23/07/2025 21:13

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 23/07/2025 17:46

I thought NHS Fife would be a hard core crew. Instead they have doctors who cry at the slightest thing and who need to be walked to their car. Hope someone walked KS to her car given that’s their modus operandi.

Thank god the nurses are more hard core.

Its more like a bunch of bully's who start greetin when the tables are turned at they are exposed for what they are.

Im slowly 🐌 trying to catch up.

SternlyMatthews · 23/07/2025 21:15

Jitrenka · 23/07/2025 16:01

So JR isn’t applying it to this situation but NC is and the judge is considering both sides? I want the supreme courts ruling to put the fear of god into JR 😡

He's worried about running out of time & doesnt want jack in the box Russell jumping up every 5 minutes objecting to its a man references, so he's said they both have to address it in submissions. Russell was going to have to anyway, NC (or CE) can probs cut & paste from the judgement.

2021x · 23/07/2025 21:15

TheKeatingFive · 23/07/2025 21:02

It's not that she's in love with him.

She's in love with her vision of herself as his 'ally'. She's getting off on her own self righteousness as the progressive, kind, caring consultant, who's so much better than the rest of us.

Yes, I think this is a type of person that wants to "be on the right side of history" and to be seen to be an "empathetic leader" being central to their identity. You can spot them a mile away. They are very superior in meetings, and almost have a "teenage manic pixie" vibe. Its all about them, not about the person.

ReasonedJudgement · 23/07/2025 21:16

Namechanged for this - I am a Judge in a different Tribunal and thought I would comment on a few comments/questions people have - note I am not watching this Tribunal live and won't be commenting on any specifics within it.

Stenographers - I am not an expert in the different types but I have had two types. The 'old fashioned' version where one stenographer is at the machine where you push multiple buttons at one, and someone else next to them and corrects the typescript as they go, and the more 'automated' version where the stenographer has headphones and watches as the computer does the speech to text bit, and the stenographer corrects that as it goes along.

The judge generally gets the transcript at the end of the day but even with stenographers I prefer to take a lot down longhand for three reasons. Firstly so I have it instantly available if I want to read it in any break in preparation for asking the witness questions. Secondly because I find it easier to skim read than a transcript, because the transcript is generally provided double spaced which I find harder to skim, and because the transcript adds in everything - every um, err, repetition etc which is harder to skim read than my notes, and thirdly because I can also scribble relevant notes as I go along in relation to what someone is saying, and then go back and see if I need to ask a question about that or if it has been covered later on. A transcript is however brilliant for searching on an individual word when you are writing up.
You need permission for transcribers to be present in court because it affects the size of the court room you need. If the hearing is in a format where it is recorded (and not all are) then you can also pay for a transcript later from the audio file. You can find more details about this including costs here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/order-a-transcript-of-court-or-tribunal-proceedings-form-ex107/guidance-for-requesting-a-transcript#employment-tribunal-judgments

What the panel is deciding - It is important to understand that what is being decided is not 'did this person break the law/how does the law apply to this case' It is 'did this person break this law/how does this law apply to this case'. In other words, everything needs to be broadly set out by the claimant in advance. And if something else comes to light that is in relation to a different law entirely, the judge won't make a finding in relation to that. For example, if in the course of an employment tribunal it somehow became obvious that someone hadn't filed a tax return when they should have done, that wouldn't be a matter that the judge would make a decision about.
Each of the barristers/representatives/advocates is painting a picture, using agreed facts, contested facts, and the law, as to what the situation is. The panel's job is firstly to decide what is the fact of any contested matter, which facts are relevant and which are irrelevant, what is the relevant law (which may or may not be agreed) and how to apply the relevant facts to the relevant law. This is really important because once the first instance Tribunal has found the facts, it is very difficult to appeal the findings of fact to a higher court. The appeal courts generally only hear appeals on matters of law.

I have done judicial diversity training in the past year and I thought it was very good. It covered a very wide range of different types of diversity and there was nothing it it I think a person with gender critical views would object to.

Guidance for requesting a transcript

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/order-a-transcript-of-court-or-tribunal-proceedings-form-ex107/guidance-for-requesting-a-transcript#employment-tribunal-judgments

NebulousDogwhistle · 23/07/2025 21:16

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 23/07/2025 21:06

Now we know what she meant when IB said she wasn't top ally. No one could compete with KS the allyest ally ever.

Can anyone confirm whether she was wearing her Top Ally badge in the hearing today?

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