NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #39

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.
Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38

SP and DU had different stories about what happened and where each was standing in the CR from Part 1. SP said DU changed clothes in front of her. DU says not and claims SP spoke to him after he’d changed and was coming out of the WC cubicle. Questions by the panel cast a tiny bit of doubt on DU’s version.

So I found it really odd that today KS was so definite about who said what, when, where & how when DU sounded less certain than her?! It just made me think that she’d swallowed the story hook, line & sinker. Then she’d gone full bore after that - while DU was much more clever when giving evidence. More nuance and subtlety. Someone said sophistry at the time. I reckon DU implied lots of things and then KS told everyone what wasn’t explicitly stated - and is now in a bit of bother for that…

They are waiting for us to start pillow fighting in our undies. For some reason they seem to think we do this all the time but are big nasty meanies for not letting them join in.

Continuation thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

(Spot the deliberate mistake!)

The Times articles will be in the Scotland print edition.
So if you are in rUK you wont get those pages.

Even online you have to hunt for the articles buried deep within the Scotland section. (only a few make it to the online front page)

That's on the other thread. 😜 They'll never find it.

A very late start "tomorrow" 😉 Edited - today not tomorrow!

Not where I work - central government. My deleted items folder still contains emails going back years. I can delete them, which means they are permanently deleted as soon as I do, but my organisation doesn't do this until we are approaching GDPR retention limits. Deleting emails after 30 days from wherever sounds like a logistical nightmare.

This thread is for Sandie, and we're all delighted that her case is going so well.

But if you get a spare moment, congratulations are also due for Dr Peter Wilkins. He was harassed and vilified by the Defence Science & Technology Dept for his very reasonable, measured beliefs, driven to resignation. The complacent malice of DSTL senior management is breathtaking. The judgment upholding his ET claim is a joy to read, and very encouraging for Sandie. Tribunals understand the post-Forstater landscape, they're not accepting bullying of sex realist beliefs anymore.

Maya's commentary -
https://x.com/MForstater/status/1947730180489023877

Direct link to judgement -
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/687e55f188c74f0fd15c96d5/Dr_P_Wilkins_v_Defence_Science_and_Technology_Laboratory_-6000548.2023-_Reserved_Judgment.pdf

If only men would ask for directions.

@ReasonedJudgement thanks for your post - really interesting. I would be terrible at trying to track, in a work environment , who said what to whom and when and who was privy to what information, who directed whom to do xyz... I'm amazed and glad that people are skilled enough to do it so painstakingly.

I read that somewhere but didn't comment as it was unverified.

But if JR really did say this - a KC supposedly expected to uphold the standards of her profession - surely she should face some form of professional sanction for that conduct?

That said, I've seen something of the way Bar Standards operate - not least what some of them do when out on the lash ...

That’s a lovely photo of Sandie and her mum ❤️

In my last public sector employer, all emails were permanently archived for organisational defensibility. Deleting from the live Outlook system didn't do anything to the archive copy. I would be extremely surprised if NHS didn't have some tamperproof system in place to keep archives for a minimum of 5yrs. Wonder what the Fife IT witness will have to say about Searle's claims...?

Am on page 27 so unlikely to catch up until bedtime.

Just wanted to say, Consultants are only big cheeses in the context of the front line service.

They are not however, very high up the food chain.

I think she is an absolute and utter snivelling lying wretch

And demonstrated her wretchedness for all to see.

Why? Love? Nah.

There was something going on here that we probably will never know about.

My DH likened it to some type of Masonic network who can make or break you.

She busied herself about the place trying to help Upton, not knowing anything as the second investigation was underway.

She cried in the witness chair

She cried allegedly in (the female) loos for 8 minutes

she cried because she realised she was being played, by the Masonic Guild of GI.

And powers and networks way above her, who whatever they offered her, today went up in a puff of smoke.

It was a slip
JR also repeatedly misgendered Upton even when directly addressing her client
This week she referred to Isla Bumba mistakenly as Isla Bryson
It’s not a good look - but does show that it’s impossible to keep up the pretence even if someone really really wants to

But that's why it should go to IT to look at. Was your organisation one that had responsibility for retaining data? Those that do archive everything.

You can't on the one hand be responsible for FOI requests and on the other delete everything after 6 months.

Is there any more on the NHS Fife statement (1 to xxx)? Would love to know how that is playing out for them 😂

I nearly cried in my tribunal but instead froze! The judge asked me a question, And I just sat there like a deer in headlights. The judge sat there looking at me and all I could focus on was her pile of ironing behind her (lockdown zoom tribunal). In the end she very nicely said my barrister could answer for me. I couldn't even have told you my name at that point!

All of my emails are automatically deleted after 3 months, apart from the one that aren't, which coincidentally aren't the ones that look like this 💨🔫 🩸🔪

Thanks - very reassuring to know about the training being even handed.

After Part 1 I looked up the Bench Book trying to understand what was going on. I was very struck by the huge swathe of text in the Transgender section. It seems disproportionate compared to all the other headings. I hope balance is returning.

I have to keep reminding myself that NMC on this board is not Not My Cat. Although trying to give one of them a disciplinary would be amusing.

Is the ‘sex is assigned at birth’ belief common among doctors through the country? It’s terrifying

Yep. The organisation I worked for was heavily involved in the pandemic so we were not allowed to delete anything at all incase it might be needed to be provided for the Covid Inquiry. Surely NHS Fife would be in the same boat? As an A&E Consultant surely she would have needed to retain emails regarding working during the pandemic, availability of PPE, health and welfare of staff etc? This is not plausible.

LOL. Some of us might have been trying on clothes after a shopping trip.

I'm currently NHS adjacent. Similar thing, can't just access older than 30days, although I'm sure IT could track them down.

Talking about the different trusts - i am working with one trust that has several hospitals. They all have their own version of a single form - it's mad! Standardisation really is needed.