NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #38

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37

Abusive men quite often turn into sobbing wrecks when their actions are called out, you've been given several examples of women's experiences of this already on this thread

I wouldn't normally reply but I think it's important for any women reading this to know it's a tactic manipulative abusive men can and will use against them.

I think she had to be called as SP's line manager - not calling her would lead to questions of why not, and inferences made

ED was the last witness before the long break so by hiding the single email from the chain the Respondents managed to not have her cross-examined on it.

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson
Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Yes agreed, I imagine that would be the reason.

Just ignore that poster. They thrive off having a contrarian view. They have a history of derailing MN threads, arguing for the sake of it, don’t rise to it.

I think the witness believes that "not discussing" the investigation applies only the plebs on the shop floor. And management will, of course, plan their actions together as usual.

But this related to an investigation into conduct of a nurse that she line manages. It is not believable, unless she didn’t take her LM responsibility seriously, that she didn’t pay any attention to the email.

Changing witness. Fair to give the one up next chance for a last-minute panic pee.

I have never thought about it this way but the difference is clear.

Some people think it is all about their feelings, and therefore it must be bad because they are upset (or, more likely in Upson's case) they want to be seen to be upset so they have to pretend to be upset.

Other people are more interested int hings like reality and truth and fairnes and justice, and they can be much more "disturbed" than a genuinely upset cryer, but they are righteously angry (often in a calm manner) not shouting and crying.

that witnes has finished and left stand. it's just 5 mins to prep for next i think

You don’t believe that a woman who was unlawfully expected to share a single sex space with a biological male was not the victim.
Why should Dr Upton’s PC trump Sandie Peggie’s PC’s of sex and belief and the workplace regs? Especially when the law has always been clear that no GRC then you remain your biological sex. DU could not have qualified for a GRC because he hadn’t been transitioning long enough.

Why do you favour the unlawful behaviour by a male over acknowledging the distress that it caused a female.

I used to be in a Glasgae writing group Bez, you'd land there beautifully. Curious what you like to read in your sparesies.

I don't think it does. I think it's a perfectly valid use of 're'. Emails are an immediate form of letter.

Beginning to wonder if this is throwing as much light on the fitness of the tribunal system as it is on NHS Fife. Seems like egregious delays and inefficiencies.

In other matters steak & fried padron peppers for lunch, my favourite.

They need to put her up for cross examination for her witness statement to be accepted on its face. There might have been something valuable in it that JR wants to address in her summing up. They could have still ducked the evidence in chief, but she has to be cross examinable. This way JR can point to NC not having challenged something as meaning it has been accepted.

DU was not naked, and she is not “predatory”. She’s a well respected, caring doctor who happens to be a trans woman, who was confronted by another member of staff for simply being present in a place she was permitted to be in by her employer

To be fair, it wasn't until I watched an episode of The Middle where the teenage daughter was laughing at her mum for writing out a whole website address starting www.etc, that I realised that you didn't have to.

Kate's back!

KS up now

KS back in witness box.

Yet you've missed very little

Very very late start

🍿

That's interesting and a surprise to me. I remember in the testimony in Feb Dr. Upton seems to struggle to explain what Sandie actually did. Which also fed into the complaint i.e. she left the room he was in!

Just thought you might find interesting, if not already seen, the Sutton Trust research into backgrounds of medics, both class based and also regional inequalities.

https://www.suttontrust.com/news-opinion/all-news-opinion/medical-profession-out-of-reach-for-most-working-class-students/

I am generally not pro quotas, but I might support it for medicine because the NHS is a public sector organisation that serves (or should...) local communities.

Why shouldn't Northern communities send bright teens to medical school who then become their GPs?

Oh, damn. And I have to go out.

Frantically skimming the thread to try and catch up as I'm agog to know whether the email-that-never-was, ever is ...

A male claiming rights to be in a women’s space is pretty much predatory by definition. Doubly so when you add in the use of that space as a self-affirmatory need.

Remember DUs complaint that SP wouldn’t “engage” - I.e. play along in the fantasy.