NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #38

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37

Lauren Harris.

We are back in the room with surprise witness

What's happened to Searle?

Perhaps. My overall point is that her peers are not going to see her actions as problematic, as they engaged in the same behaviour.

In management circles like hers, I guarantee you that they feel this ET is bullshit and that they did what needed to be done to protect “poor DU”. It will be the blind leading the blind for want of a better term.

Where is KS??????

NC - you were sympathetic to SP, when you wouldn't have been if she didn't want to share with a black nurse, so it is different. Because wearing makeup, growing hair etc doesn't make you a woman
ED - I have no expertise and am not a TW so can't answer.
NC - it's a fact, I know

NC - it's uncomfortable, it's hard to say, but because a man wears clothes, grows hair etc it doesn't make him a woman. It's a fact
JR - object, false premise it's a fact. it's her belief.
J - qu of case is facts and law. Might be a necessary fact, what is sex of R2
JR - we need a skilled expert to deal with sex qu
J - so put that later. C's case is that R2 is male. It is a disputed qu, it's a mix of fact and law. That is being put against you, we are dealing with EQA.
JR - how can this witness answer this?
J - it is a permissible qu, it
J - may help
NC - qu again. Asking you to agree, it is uncomfortable becuase it has been made difficult to say. Stages Growing hair doesn't make him a woman?
ED - some men have long hair
NC - if that man there grew his hair would it make him a woman?
ED - no
NC - if he shaved?
ED - no
NC - wore make up?
ED - no
NC - womens clothes?
ED - unless he identified as a TW, no. I just have to be respectful of others beliefs as in code of conduct.
NC - at clothes you changed your answer. Do clothes make you a woman
ED - if he identifies as a woman
NC - if he's done none of those things, but says he's a woman, is he?
ED - not my job to say. I'm not an expert, I have to respect what they are telling me. Doesn't influence me being able to treat patient.
NC - it's right a GI doesn't impact treating them?
ED - no
NC - no impact on blood tests, whether they might be pregnant etc? GI is in their head
ED - indiv thoughts and feelings.
NC - what sex someone is matters for blood tests, normal ranges vary by sex.
ED - which ones
NC - troponin levels, diff range for men/women to do with heart attack?
ED - it's the same for men and women, ascending or descending levels. Only test I can think of is pregnancy - beta hcg.
NC - normal range of red blood cells differs by sex?
ED - not my expertise
NC - even weight, healthy ranges are based on sex?
ED - we don't weigh a lot
NC - BMI?
ED - height and weight
NC - and sex
ED - no just height and weight
NC - are you saying pregnancy is the only thing that would differ between men and women?
ED - only one I can think of
NC - not blood cell count?
ED - no
J- says it's the only one she knows
NC - whether M or F is written in every cell of the body
ED - don't understand.
NC - if in doubt, rarely, but if in doubt you can do a simple cheek swab
ED - DNA swab?
NC - yes,
NC - it will tell you sex
ED - yes
NC - a cheek swab will tell you if body is m or F
ED - will give you DNA, individual to everyone
NC - will tell if M or F
ED - yes it's your unique identity
NC - those tests won't be changed by hair, make up, clothes
ED - I don't know, a nurse

From part 1 of the Feb 13 afternoon session.

https://archive.is/VbUfx#selection-1025.9-1029.26

Bunbury does not support feeding dopamine hits to people determined to engage others in drama triangles.

Huh? Nooooo KS

Oh well

Just to make people aware, not all MN tools are available in all formats.

I love the colours for the PP and my own posts, but they are only on the app. Other tools are only in the browser.

Some features- taking you to where you last were- don’t work in some formats.

Calling women 'hags'. Not really going out of their way to disprove the notion that they are a bunch of hateful misogynist chauvinist pigs are they.

And they talk about vindictive, when Upton vindictively did everything he could to vindictively punish a woman who said NO to his predatorial demands. Is reddit anything but a cesspit of misogynist chauvinist pigs who gaslight and DARVO?

Perhaps MC could not do a later time? So they’ve slotted her in before KS?

Where on earth is KS? Is this normal? Will she be coming back later?

If they're Tunnocks, snap them up before BoiledBeetle finds out. * *

A brilliant David Bowie track!j

My banana oat pancake recipe contains egg and baking powder, and has never let me down.

tribunal tweets are GO!

Hmm

Even if it transpires that she conspired to obstruct justice? If that was the outcome, most people would think such a conspiracy dishonest. Would it not bring her profession, NHS Fife itself along with her personally into disrepute?

Of course, if that is not the case (or as she said, can’t be proven by the Claimant’s team) then she would not be implicated in any wrongdoing on that point.

Could it be that the current witness is only available today so they've agreed to take out of order?

I hope MC is ok, she really doesn't sound well.

Katherine Searle was at the Tribunal at about noon; the press guy posted a photo on X

Sounds like Lauren has had a late night at the karaoke bar

She doesn't sound good

JR has a new tone today. Like a mother soothing a very sensitive upset child.

She sounds terrified.

It’s not confusing to you because you’re probably not that literate with tech. For those of us who are, it’s bizzare to manually type something that is automated. It’s the sort of thing someone who isn’t digitally competent would do, because you lack the fundamental insight into why the automation exists.