NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #38

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37

He testified that KS had instructed him to use the female changing room. She denied this and says she just asked if he was happy to use it.

Im not clear why it matters how a private individual personally defines their sexuality.

I reckon she’s feeling okay. NHS legal would have coached her on how to approach today.

she’s clearly a valued/respected member of the NHS, her job is safe regardless of the outcome. So no matter what comes of this, she likely has confidence that she’s personally going to be fine.

Right, I have a Complaint. Who was it suggested oat and banana pancakes on one of yesterday's threads? What were you thinking? Absolutely unbelievably minging. I've thrown them out for the magpies but even they are having trouble.

I’m think this is parsing. If my employer asked me if I was happy to do something, I would understand that as meaning that was the proposed/ suggested/ preferred approach unless I objected for some reason.

Even if it's proven that she deliberately witheld evidence and lied? I'm not so sure. That would be a GMC referral at the very least.

does this matter in context? I get that they’re not saying exactly the same thing but I can’t see how this supports/does not support the overall tribunal. Ultimately a discussion was held & the outcome was he used the CRs so they overall have backed each other.

I thought these sounded amazing! Little drizzle of honey too? Sounded goo-oo-ood!

Was it a taste or texture thing, or something else entirely?

Aw I was going to try these this afternoon. I couldn't picture the texture in my mind. Maybe the poster meant oatmeal? As in finely ground oats?

I've made them precisely twice. First time they were delicious. Second time not so much 🙁

Indeed, the wait for cross examination must be excruciating 😂

Agree

The suggestion is he already told her he'd been using the changing room and she asked if he was happy to continue doing so. That's not the same as telling him to use it.

That seems to be what searle disputed.

The assumption being Upton claiming 'its not my fault, I didnt do anything wrong, I was told to use the f changing room' .

Searle denies this.

For anyone who just posts a full stop on this thread, there's a 'watch' button at the top of the page. Better to use that.

Yes. Someone posted this thread:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376899-nhs-consultant-awarded-ps45-million-in-employment-tribunal-in-2011?page=2&reply=145845597

Similar to this case in that the NHS colluded to push out an employee. Lots of NHS senior staff were admonished by the tribunal in that case, but a cursory glance on LinkedIn shows they stayed with the NHS.

The thing I keep thinking about - what would have happened if the local MP Sandie approached for help wasn’t Neale Hanvey, with his understanding and connections, but one of the genderists, or even just someone uninterested and uninformed? Would any of this have come to light?

Because it very much seems as though a group of senior people conspired to punish Sandie for her objection to their favoured ideology, and to either sack her or drive her into silence. It was only when they realised she’d sought legal representation that they brought her back to work and launched a second, more impartial investigation. And then they tried to cover up what they’d initially done, outright denying it to the tribunal.

Back in the February hearing, when Naomi Cunningham was asking questions about disclosure, Jane Russell repeatedly asserted “This is not a roving public inquiry”. But, you know, I’m really starting to think maybe it should be,

How many other Sandies are there elsewhere, who weren’t in a position to fight back?

Tbf I can easily see how this could be misconstrued as being given permission.

Ks: Are you happy to keep using the f cr?
Du: of course

Nothing else said about it. It's as good as permission given.

I don’t see how that really matters particularly. At the end of the day it was agreed that she would use that changing room.

Are people in with visuals?
I still have a black screen and WFTCHTJ, but can see the list of names in "our" room.

I think the context may be that the respondents barrister will try to blame management for Upton using the changing room, and try to clear Upton of any harassment (they told me to do it , it's their fault )

NC Re DU using F CR, DU said [reads re was approp for him to use this CR. I have been instructed is the approp thing for me to do and I've been told to do this] Y're the only person who discussed this

KS I didnt instruct Dr Upton. I checked she was ok to use the F CR.

KS I wldnt normally ask this but I wanted to make sure she was comfortable doing this as aware she's a T female. A short convo only and no instruction.

It’s not a death blow. But he says I have been instructed to use the laydeezs and she says I didn’t instruct the trans female. So a classic case of he says/ she says. Someone lied as these were the only two consulting each other with the odd email to Mrs Bumba.

I'm not so sure her job is safe, she could be struck off based on what I've read!

GMC is pretty captured. Lord, what do you do when everywhere has been taken over?

And also use the bookmark on someone's post to go back to where you left off

she’s clearly a valued/respected member of the NHS,

Was. I don't expect that will last. (Why did I just quote "Pay it back"? She does look "Trapped between the doctor and the magistrate"

her job is safe regardless of the outcome. So no matter what comes of this, she likely has confidence that she’s personally going to be fine.

As fine as you can be with your reputation in tatters, which if you're used to getting a lot of respect might not be very fine at all.