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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 10:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

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17
NoBinturongsHereMate · 22/07/2025 11:31

CapeGooseberry · 22/07/2025 11:22

I missed yesterday morning. Did we hear anything more about the press statement?

Dealt with in private pre-session. NC/Sex Matters have asked for disclosure of the names of those who wrote & signed off the statement (and revisions?).

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 11:32

I always thought bigender meant I have a fat arse. At least that how I identify.

Szygy · 22/07/2025 11:32

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 11:30

I can see that too, but if I run my trackpad around the screen, the sidebar button comes back again. I think we just haven't been allowed in for this long without them turning the camera on, so we aren't used to seein the screen go into sleep mode, or whatever it is.

I've got the sidebar with names of observers, and the main screen with the crest and message, plus crossed-out camera, but no sign of WFTCHTJ yet.

Butchyrestingface · 22/07/2025 11:33

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 11:29

@Butchyrestingface I feel ROBBED of the laughing emoji re your knitting post

Season 1 Nana GIF by Nanalan'

Dis me.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 22/07/2025 11:33

MyAmpleSheep · 22/07/2025 11:22

It’s only available to the public for personal inspection by attendance at the court in Dundee. I believe MF went there and transcribed the infamous emails by hand. Also a journalist from The Herald published some details of the internal Fofe investigation against SP, the one where they found insufficient evidence to support the allegations against her. But the bundle is not available online, by order of the court.

It was I think the pool player Employment Tribunal where we had access to the bundle online while the court was sitting.

Gymnopedie · 22/07/2025 11:33

IDareSay · 22/07/2025 11:26

https://x.com/j4ppleby/status/1947603694788173886

"[KS sworn in]
JR Can we take a short break
J Yes

We've only just started and she wants a break?

MyrtleLion · 22/07/2025 11:33

RobinEllacotStrike · 22/07/2025 11:29

@Butchyrestingface I feel ROBBED of the laughing emoji re your knitting post

If I react with a heart, mostly I am actually missing the laugh emoji.

FannyCann · 22/07/2025 11:34

For those wishing to hone a Scottish accent and learn some of the vocabulary I recommend Adventurs O Tintin: The Derk Isle (Scots)
We bought a copy in a rather nice book shop in Tobermory and used to have family reading in Scots competitions. There's also a copy of Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone available in Scottish.

www.amazon.co.uk/Adventurs-Tintin-Derk-Isle-Scots/dp/1906587388/ref=sr_1_1?crid=37CESDD11E5EW&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yQvEFxg05BCh5X5v0rkp3FN52esml9HhjFDG14gGgy3GjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.clP7R5E6m0gV3F9YaP_myxONaLyXrAw4Pb1OP0NJUTE&dib_tag=se&keywords=The+Adventurs+O+Tintin%3A+The+Derk+Isle&qid=1753180024&sprefix=the+adventurs+o+tintin+the+derk+isle%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-1

IDareSay · 22/07/2025 11:34

Gymnopedie · 22/07/2025 11:33

We've only just started and she wants a break?

A joke I think 😁

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 11:34

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 11:32

I always thought bigender meant I have a fat arse. At least that how I identify.

I identify as having a tiny, perfect, peachy, child-sized arse and it is sheer bigotry and bumphobia that made me get stuck on the kiddie slide at soft play.

NHSFifeStatementFinalFINALFinalVersionV9FINAL · 22/07/2025 11:35

StellaAndCrow · 22/07/2025 11:30

Non-binary, genderqueer, agender and bigender all mean someone who does not identify as male or female.

That's completely at odds with what I've read elsewhere Grin you can acknowledge your sex (m/f) without having a gender identity and be agender?

BezMills · 22/07/2025 11:35

NoBinturongsHereMate · 22/07/2025 11:29

Having thought very hard about it across the course of these threads, I've come to the conclusion that there is gender identity for everyone and I do indeed have one.

I'm rheopectic non-Newtonian.

It's not even that unusual that I have to look up a word after reading one of your posts, yer lik a foontain ay esoteric ken, ken?

WithOnlyTheMemories · 22/07/2025 11:36

TiredOldHen · 22/07/2025 11:24

Went on x to look at picture of KS and was made a bit sad by the comments about her appearance, it felt a bit like a baying mob (I’m not a lot on X so I get this might be normal). If we are appalled about a woman like SP being piled on by the world surely it’s a bit hypocritical to relish it happening to another women no matter what her views are. I admit that the emails are awful and I have no idea how she will try to justify them, but she has been condemned without giving her side and thrown under the bus by numerous colleagues (sounds familiar) Good for her for turning up, head held high. I respect bravery wherever I see it

This x 1000. Everyone who piles on Dr S just comes across as another bully who hates women. It's depressing to see. Twitter is a fucking cesspit.

StellaAndCrow · 22/07/2025 11:36

I did look at the NHS Fife-recommended "It's Pronounced Metrosexual" website, but gave up after these:

https://www.itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2013/01/a-comprehensive-list-of-lgbtq-term-definitions/

demiromantic
adj. : little or no capacity to experience romantic attraction until a strong sexual connection is formed with someone, often within a sexual relationship.

demisexual
adj. : little or no capacity to experience sexual attraction until a strong romantic connection is formed with someone, often within a romantic relationship.

emotional attraction
noun : a capacity that evokes the want to engage in emotionally intimate behavior (e.g., sharing, confiding, trusting, inter-depending), experienced in varying degrees (from little-to-none to intense). Often conflated with sexual attraction, romantic attraction, and/or spiritual attraction.

feminine-of-center; masculine-of-center
adj. : a phrase that indicates a range in terms of gender identity and expression for people who present, understand themselves, and/or relate to others in a generally more feminine/masculine way, but don’t necessarily identify as women or men. Feminine-of-center individuals may also identify as “femme,” “submissive,” “transfeminine,” etc.; masculine-of-center individuals may also often identify as “butch,” “stud,” “aggressive,” “boi,” “transmasculine,” etc.

gender normative / gender straight
adj. : someone whose gender presentation, whether by nature or by choice, aligns with society’s gender-based expectations.

PGPs
abbr. : preferred gender pronouns. Often used during introductions, becoming more common as a standard practice. Many suggest removing the “preferred,” because it indicates flexibility and/or the power for the speaker to decide which pronouns to use for someone else.

Thanks NHS Fife!

Comprehensive* List of LGBTQ+ Vocabulary Definitions - ❤ It's Pronounced Metrosexual

To help you make sense of the alphabet soup, and be as respectful and accurate as possible when using identifying language.

https://www.itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2013/01/a-comprehensive-list-of-lgbtq-term-definitions/

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 11:36

CapeGooseberry · 22/07/2025 11:29

That seems a bit unreasonable if there is no opportunity to the opposing side to challenge their statement and potentially undermine what they wrote.

They can do that in submissions. There is already another witness statement that they have accepted in that way. The court appearance is for questions. If the witness doesn't show when the opposite side wanted to ask questions, the witness can't defend themselves against how the other side will use their statement and non-attendance against their defence.

I suspect KS has shown up in that soft sports-type top as part of the scene setting to the court, in the tale of how the public response has been excessively danmaging to her health already, but the risk of a Citizens Arrest is too great, and they therefore appeal to hear her brave evidence in camera.

Seriously, if there is evidence of real threats against her specifically, she may well get a private hearing, and we will have to infer what we can of what happened today from NC's submission next week.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 22/07/2025 11:36

IDareSay · 22/07/2025 11:26

https://x.com/j4ppleby/status/1947603694788173886

"[KS sworn in]
JR Can we take a short break
J Yes

We really need the laugh reaction back.

FannyCann · 22/07/2025 11:36

From the Herald live feed:

"This is by far the longest delay we have had in this tribunal. We were due to start over an hour and 20 minutes ago.
No one really knows what the cause of the delay is, but I'm told there are a lot of procedural matters being discussed by both teams.
Both Sandie Peggie and Dr Searle, who is giving evidence today, arrived shortly before 9.30am so it's set to be a very long day."

anyolddinosaur · 22/07/2025 11:36

I'm interested in the views of the true believers, how many times have people said " make it make sense". However repeating defamation for which there is no evidence, even if you then add a mealy mouthed disclaimer, can lay mumsnet open to legal action. Ignore and report.

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 11:37

ThatCyanCat · 22/07/2025 11:34

I identify as having a tiny, perfect, peachy, child-sized arse and it is sheer bigotry and bumphobia that made me get stuck on the kiddie slide at soft play.

😆 at Bumphobia

ThreeAutumnCrows · 22/07/2025 11:37

GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen · 22/07/2025 11:32

I always thought bigender meant I have a fat arse. At least that how I identify.

But you make the rocking world go round.

FannyCann · 22/07/2025 11:37

They'll be needing a coffee break before they start at this rate.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 11:37

Butchyrestingface · 22/07/2025 11:33

Dis me.

This was me yesterday with my crochet hook in hand.

Think my next piece will be a tapestry top that says terf on it.

NebulousDog · 22/07/2025 11:37

Have I logged on to Mastermind, by mistake: "I've started, so I'll finish"?

I had a hunch you'd be on thread 36 by the time I logged on to check if anything had happened. Poor Nauticant

PrettyDamnCosmic · 22/07/2025 11:38

GreenUp · 22/07/2025 11:24

Bit confused about where I am.

Was on WFTCHTJ but then it said ‘Welcome to the conference’ but I entered into a dark room with a white blanked out camera symbol at the top.

There’s a crown court logo and it says the number of people in the room.

I can’t see the side menu with other people listed.

Am I in the court pre-connection or in the lobby?

The remote access is well handled this time around. It was a bloody shambles in February. I am just slightly disappointed not to recognise any of the names of the other occupants of Room 4. No disrespect to the Room 4 participants today but last time I was chuffed to see my name listed along with Maya Forstater, Helen Joyce & Julie Bindel.😀

CriticalCondition · 22/07/2025 11:39

I remember in previous tribunals that in the case of a delay observers wouldn't be admitted but would be kept at the WFTCHTJ stage. After an hour they would be kicked out automatically.

I've been very impressed by the organisation of the remote viewing. It's been exemplary. I think Boswell was very scathing about it on the first day and called it carnage/a shambles/some such. Completely unjustified and I've been taking his views with a big pinch of salt ever since.

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