NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

If one side or the other cannot produce a witness, the witness statement would carry much less weight because there would be no opportunity for cross examination (testing of the evidence). Also the other party could ask that the judges disregard the evidence entirely.

Place your bets please - which will start first
The Tribunal - or
England v Italy - which starts at 8pm

Nooo, then in twenty minutes they will all be needing a wee. No liquid to be imbibed. They can have a glass of water with their lunch but that’s it. And at this rate 😪 they will have had their lunch before we see sight of any action today.

And what are your pronouns?

I think we're heading for an early lunch.

This is a report posted on X referring to previous chaos DU is alleged to have caused in an earlier hospital with claims of misgendering/not enough support . Hopefully the link works:

x.com/Fyrishsunset/status/1947533400975266179/photo/1

It means you are from Blefescu and standing firms against the bigotted Lilliputians.

feminine-of-center; masculine-of-center
adj. : a phrase that indicates a range in terms of gender identity and expression

So is GI, or isn't it, related to masculinity and femininity? We've had some trans people say this is completely wrong, some who refuse to answer, yet it's often talked about as if that's what it means, and it's certainly implied here. It would make discussing all this far more easier if anyone using "a woman" to mean "feminine by some measure or other" would directly say so, as most people have an idea of what is meant by that.

Possibly not for this thread though!

So shaken, but not stirred?😁

Have you rheopectic non-Newtonians got a flag?
Get out the colouring pencils and design yourself one, it'll pass the time till the trib starts😃

The side panel has just appeared! Hopefully we’ll be in business soon.

This is from The Herald "Compared to Tommy Robinson - Nurses hit out at RCN on Gender Ruling"

https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/25329964.compared-tommy-robinson---nurses-hit-rcn-gender-ruling/

JW has been a practice nurse for more than 20 years. She said: “I received an email from the RCN inviting members to sign up for one of the six online sessions and two in-person sessions to discuss the Supreme Court verdict.
“These were described as a chance to re-shape the union’s professional guidance and positioning. They were framed as safe and inclusive spaces to share our thoughts. The opening statement in the email invitations included a lengthy message of support of all ‘LGBTQIA-plus members’.
“I’m one of the founders of Scottish Lesbians [a pressure group] and we had been invited to make an intervention in the Supreme Court proceedings. As such, I emailed the RCN, stating who I was and asking if there was anything I could do to help with these engagement sessions. I received no reply.
“There were around 40 participants and the session began with an introduction from the facilitator, who was also the professional lead for the RCN. She talked about issues around psychological safety and how some people might be feeling overwhelmed. She also warned that if the meeting became unsafe then it could be ended prematurely.
“There then followed a video by the director of Legal Employment and Member Relations. The video recounted what had led to the Supreme Court judgment. It was very clear and succinct and there was no hint of any spin. She made it clear that the RCN should wait for EHRC guidance.

“We were invited to ask questions about these issues by way of raising a virtual hand. Several people spoke to express their concern and confusion about the Supreme Court ruling.
“I said I was from Scottish Lesbians and that I’d felt relieved when the judgment was announced.
“I expressed concern that the ruling was being framed as complicated when it was actually quite simple. I was thanked for saying this ‘in a respectful manner’.

“A man identifying as a woman said he disagreed with me completely, but did so in what I considered to be a reasonable and respectful manner. The Facilitator said it was good that there was a diversity of opinion.

“Then the online chat facility opened up. One person was unhappy about the ‘diversity of voices’ and added: ‘Are we going to invite Tommy Robinson next’? And then ‘there’s a bigot in every community’. This was clearly directed at me.
“The insults went on and on. It’s not nice to hear these things being said about you. The atmosphere had turned to one of absolute hostility.
“There was a clear assumption that anyone who falls into the category of LGBTQI-plus would be horrified by the Supreme Court result. No one imagined that anyone could have welcomed it.
“An incident at the end left me very shaken. One woman said that views like mine were racist; that I was a terf; that exclusionary people like me shouldn’t be given a platform and that my words were a danger to vulnerable people.
“Making an accusation like this is the worst you can level at a nurse.
"I raised my hand to speak. However my microphone wasn’t enabled and so I never got the chance.
“I came out of that session feeling that, while it might have been safe for others, it certainly wasn’t a safe space for me.”

It'll be time for lunch soon.

I cheekily asked a person who has seen the bundle if they recalled anything about the changing room. They couldn't remember exact details but recalls it from the photos as being 'very small'

Again from https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/viewpoint/25329964.compared-tommy-robinson---nurses-hit-rcn-gender-ruling/

The second RCN member who approached <a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/o/eegwb/www.heraldscotland.com/topics/health/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">The Herald, had attended a different online engagement session on June 25. She said: “This was an RCN event billed as being about the legal ramifications and impact on the nursing profession of the Supreme Court judgment.
“Initially I thought: ‘this sounds interesting and it feels like progress. The RCN might be wanting to engage with taking it forward in a collegiate and safe way to ensure compliance with the law and upholding the main tenets of nursing: caring compassion’.
“The letter I received from the RCN alluded to sensitivities and safety issues, but I didn’t see any of them being mitigated. I thought it would be a straightforward discussion about policy to ensure it was at one with current law. Why would that be unsafe … unless you’re predicting that something unprofessional was taking place? Professionalism implies an element of safety.
“When the event began, I noticed that the chat facility was closed and that our mics and cameras were off. You had to put up a virtual hand up if you wanted to say anything.
“However, the Q&A facility was open and there were about 40 participants. The chair was the professional lead for the Executive Nurse network. She is also a Professional Learning Facilitator. She was followed by the RCN Executive Director Legal, Employment and Member Relations who made a presentation on what the Supreme Court had said. It was clear and concise and I was encouraged by it. She described what it meant and how we had to develop policy and practice around that.
“We then watched a video in which a two-year trans-identified male said he’d felt unable to venture out of the house after the Supreme Court judgment.
“I wanted to say: ‘Fear not: your rights have not been rolled back. We’ll all make sure your protected characteristics are the same as women. We’re all going to be equal now’.
“I tried to unmute my mic and my camera, but kept getting a screen pop-up saying the organisers had disabled my mic and camera. I tried logging in and out, but to no avail.
“A number of uniformed female nurses, who all seemed to be on duty, made comments about how terrible they felt about the Supreme Court judgment and how their trans friends were very upset. There was no policy discussion.
“The facilitator then said: ‘I just want to reassure everyone we are engaging with a range of opinions of stakeholders around governing policy’. This included a trans organisation.
“I asked: ‘How are you engaging with women’, but my question was held ‘in review’.
“Then I got a private reply from the Equality, Diversity and Programme lead, asking me to email her privately.
I asked her in turn if she was telling me that they weren’t engaging with women. But she continued to insist that I get in touch with her privately to discuss the matter. Yet, this was meant to be an open session about developing policy.
“I made a comment to the effect that gender isn’t a protected characteristic but that gender-re-assigned was. I said that all minorities need protected. And that we needed to be careful that we operate within the law and according to guidance.
“That drew gasps from a previous speaker, who then started to cry. There were expressions of shock.
“Some participants became very upset and stated how discriminatory my comment was. Yet all I’d stated was fact.

It's bound to start soon as I have to pop out for 30 minutes

From The Scotsman live reporting:

11:04 BST
Scottish Conservative MSPs Murdo Fraser and Tess White are at the employment tribunal in Dundee to lend their support to Sandie Peggie.
They were pictured greeting her as she arrived at the tribunal hearing centre.

Need a special reaction for your excellent username!

Legal question: This seems to be taken from investigation notes from the tribunal paperwork, but I don't think it was mentioned in the cross examination.

What does the judge then do with the information?

Ignore it because it hasn't been used as part of a legal argument by SP's team? Ignore it because it isn't relevant to this case?

I haven't been able to find a link to the underlying article on the Daily Mail website.

From herald
11:21am
By Rebecca McCurdy in Dundee
This is by far the longest delay we have had in this tribunal. We were due to start over an hour and 20 minutes ago.
No one really knows what the cause of the delay is, but I'm told there are a lot of procedural matters being discussed by both teams.
Both Sandie Peggie and Dr Searle, who is giving evidence today, arrived shortly before 9.30am so it's set to be a very long day.

I've just seen this post on Twitter! (in an appreciate way by the poster, I hasten to add)

They need JKR to log on to be quorate.

Do ETs work overtime? Or do they just decided they're going to clock off at a certain time.

I know in February they just resumed questioning the next day, but then they were granted this extension to July. Surely they won't want to extend again.

agree.

I have a twitter/X account, solely for my perusal of GC individuals because to have such views on my FB or IG accounts would render me pretty much friendless I fear; should I actually announce my GC views on either of those platforms. It's a sad world.

However, I absolutely agree that twitter/X is utterly toxic with regard to individuals personal vendettas and how they can, quite freely, slag others off in the most demeaning of ways. It's really appalling tbh.

Unfortunately these days my world-rotating powers extend out well past the Asteroid Belt. Which is about the only belt big enough, frankly..