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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

1000 replies

nauticant · 22/07/2025 10:21

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

OP posts:
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17
Shortshriftandlethal · 22/07/2025 15:52

Has become very vague and forgetful about suggesting to DU that he should take the matter further.

SwivelEyedAndProud · 22/07/2025 15:53

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 15:51

Laughing aside, it's actuall scary that these so called medical people are prepared to say these things on record, under oath. It's clearly what they actually believe, which surely must make them unfit to practice medicine.

Unfortunately, the medical regulator, who might be able to reign in this idiocy, believes precisely the same nonsense. Or purports to. Medics (those with no balls, anyway) are in a bit of a bind.

GrumpyUngulate · 22/07/2025 15:53

KnottyAuty · 22/07/2025 15:35

Yes you can - I do it a lot if someone has used an old/irrelevant header and I want to be able to find the convo later. So I edit the subject before replying

You're confusing "Subject" which can be readily changed, and "headers" which are techy gibberish appended to each message describing it's exact provenance and routing. The latter can be falsified by a skilled forger, but it's very difficult to create a plausible fake.

prh47bridge · 22/07/2025 15:53

Chersfrozenface · 22/07/2025 15:47

So this consultant, what is her speciality? Or do I mean specialism?

Edited: vocab, also spelling

Edited

Emergency medicine.

Whatever her speciality, claiming to not know how sex is assigned at birth is ridiculous (not that it is actually assigned - it is observed and recorded). You use your eyes. It isn't complicated. In 99.999%+ of cases, you will get the right answer just by looking. You don't need to be a specialist to know that.

Give me strength...

OP posts:
Signalbox · 22/07/2025 15:53

KS now they/theming BU.

MyrtleLion · 22/07/2025 15:54

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 15:48

If you have a message deleted and you want to question it, report the deleted post to MNHQ, put your query into the 'why' box and you are straight through to their complaints department.

Ating MNHQ on threads doesn't generally work. It used to Once Upon A Time, but I've not seen it in a long while.

Unfortunately I can’t report my deleted post. I posted the @MN post so I could report that to MN, and also to flag to readers that the post is not directed at them.

For the avoidance of doubt, I reported that post, asking for reasons for its deletion.

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 22/07/2025 15:54

This whole thing is like a massive Milgram experiment where the subjects obey the authority of the gender ideologues to ever greater degrees, causing ever greater harm.

Lemonz · 22/07/2025 15:54

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 15:51

Laughing aside, it's actuall scary that these so called medical people are prepared to say these things on record, under oath. It's clearly what they actually believe, which surely must make them unfit to practice medicine.

They do not actually believe this! They are just desperate to say what they think they are supposed to say.

Merrymouse · 22/07/2025 15:55

KS Beth has every right to use the facilities she wants under the GRA.

How?????

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 15:55

KS: I am absoluetely trustworthy. I am a doctor.

Also KS in pretty much the next sentence

KS: I can't tell the difference between boy and girls. Even though I'm a trustworthy doctor.

snickersbarchild · 22/07/2025 15:55

Now using 'male' in its proper sense.

InvisibleDragon · 22/07/2025 15:55

Just putting this here for KS as to why biological sex matters a great deal in Emergency medicine:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1811491

Some extracts because it's paywalled (content warning - stillbirth):
Sam, a 32-year-old man, was brought to the emergency department by his boyfriend. Sam reported an 8-hour history of severe (8 out of 10), intermittent lower abdominal pain. In triage, he had a blood pressure of 185/84 mm Hg and a heart rate of 67 beats per minute. The triage nurse noted that he was an obese man who appeared comfortable between bouts of pain. Sam told the nurse that he was a transgender man. His electronic medical record (EMR) indicated that he was male. He had previously used testosterone, as well as antihypertensives, both of which he had discontinued because he’d lost his insurance coverage. It had been several years since he last menstruated. He had taken a home pregnancy test that morning and got a positive result, but he wondered whether it was a false positive. He added that he had “peed himself” that morning.

The triage nurse assessed him to be a man with abdominal pain who had not taken his prescribed blood-pressure medications. Determining that his condition was stable, she triaged him to nonurgent assessment. Laboratory samples were drawn, including one for human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) testing, and Sam awaited further evaluation.

Several hours later, an emergency physician came to evaluate him. She noted the positive results of the serum hCG test and took a more detailed history, considering possible early pregnancy complications. On examination, she noted that his abdomen was not only obese but also gravid. The evaluation had changed: the patient had severe abdominal pain, possible ruptured membranes, and hypertension in advanced pregnancy, which suggested possible labor, placental abruption, or preeclampsia — urgent conditions presenting a potential emergency.

Bedside ultrasonography was performed, confirming an advanced pregnancy with unclear presence of fetal cardiac activity. The obstetrics team was paged urgently. On pelvic exam, the cervix was found to be dilated to 4 to 5 cm. The umbilical cord was palpated in the vagina: Sam had cord prolapse of uncertain duration. The fetal head was immediately elevated. Sam was rapidly counseled regarding the findings and the need for an emergency caesarean delivery. He consented and was transferred to the operating room for further evaluation. In the operating room, no fetal heartbeat could be detected on ultrasound. Given the fetal death, Sam was transferred to a delivery suite where, moments later, he delivered a stillborn baby.

After discharge from the hospital, Sam reestablished care. He resumed antihypertensive treatment and requested the placement of a copper IUD. Though he had not planned or expected the pregnancy, he was heartbroken at the loss of his baby and had a major depressive episode. Despite having significant dysphoria related to menstruation, he has not resumed testosterone treatment, since he prefers to have continued menses that reassure him that he is not pregnant.

This bullshit isn't just a luxury beliefs, it causes real harm to real people. It makes me so angry.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 22/07/2025 15:56

KS is very grudgingly agreeing that women may have a good reason why they don't want a man in their changing room.

Waitwhat23 · 22/07/2025 15:56

Pluvia · 22/07/2025 15:45

Boom: the sound of Isla Bumba exploding in the distance.

Agreed. I think the ultimate aim is to throw IB under the bus. They'll hand wave away the emails as having been done in good faith, following IB's advice.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 15:56

FleurFloor · 22/07/2025 15:50

The extent to which this educated senior professional is prepared to be clown herself in the pursuit of such a murky cause is absolutely astounding.

It's mind blowing isn't it? No one will ever be able to explain this to me, not in a million years.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 22/07/2025 15:56

Signalbox · 22/07/2025 15:53

KS now they/theming BU.

Not very validating of KS

NotMyRealAccount · 22/07/2025 15:56

As a doctor by trade myself, I'm horrified but not entirely surprised at Dr Upton and now Dr Searle being the witnesses who think they can one-up the legal professionals.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 22/07/2025 15:56

You Can't Prove It, Tribunal Hears (for you BBC!)

Jitrenka · 22/07/2025 15:57

RedToothBrush · 22/07/2025 15:55

KS: I am absoluetely trustworthy. I am a doctor.

Also KS in pretty much the next sentence

KS: I can't tell the difference between boy and girls. Even though I'm a trustworthy doctor.

Omg we may aswell scrap hospitals altogether if this is their logic at its finest 🤦‍♀️

HalfWomanHalfHobnob · 22/07/2025 15:57

NC about to go in for the kill

Boiledbeetle · 22/07/2025 15:58

KS must feel sick right now!

NotAGentleReminder · 22/07/2025 15:58

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 22/07/2025 15:51

Laughing aside, it's actuall scary that these so called medical people are prepared to say these things on record, under oath. It's clearly what they actually believe, which surely must make them unfit to practice medicine.

As a medic, I'd be surprised they actually believe it. I suspect most are mainly worried about provoking a complaint from a trans-identifying colleague, or concerned about a colleague's MH deteriorating if not affirmed, or think they just need to follow the batshit NHS guidance to stay out of trouble, can't really get their heads around it but the job is stressful enough and they don't have the headspace to understand why on earth this nonsense has infiltrated the profession and they're being asked to enable it, been indoctrinated that this is 'being kind' which is now a GMC duty of a doctor, they can't see anyone else challenging it and there are more important things to be getting on with at work like seeing patients.

cigarsmokingwoman · 22/07/2025 15:58

"trust me I'm a doctor" should be a headline

BezMills · 22/07/2025 15:58

From TT

KS I dont recall suggesting that he should take things further
NC [new doc] Read the 1st para. [reads re raising it with you and was given the opportunity. He wasnt going to force her to change w him]
KS I dont recall that or what form it cld have taken [raising it further]

Fifer : ye ken what. The bairns that went on tae be doctors were definitely the brainy anes at school. They kent it, we aw kent it. Definitely clever clever folk. But pit them in a garage, they'd have tae admit, the mechanic kens whats under the grease better than they dae, ken. And so it gauns on, ye're cliver but ye have tae consider yer context-specific experise, ken? So why dis every doctor in this place think they're smarter than NC? A mean time will tell, but the smart money is goin on the person that's at their work that dis this aw day. It's a straight up amateur vs professional match up. An it's no a charity fitba match, they're playin for aw the marbles here.

KS It cld have been talking w SP
NC Is it plausible u discussed it?
KS DU was v upset so wld have been approp to take further to ensure e'one is safe in kind and compassionate way
NC Are u suggesting an informal discussion wld have been appropriate?
KS Talking between ppl with kindness and compassion can often be the best way forward
NC Does kind/compassion incl empathy? Yes
NC And understanding ppl have diff experiences? Yes
NC Some W may be more uncomfortable w removing clothes w a man not intimate with?
KS Yes

Big Sond glares doon at his Bingo Caird. Somebody's stitched him right up. Third day in the row wi nae square saying 'Pete The Plumber'.

NC Can u spell out the kind of life experiences that might cause that? Male violence. Unwanted behav by men
NC A lot of W have exp this kind of thing?
KS I dont know the nos
NC NAd they dont wear badge sdo they?
KS No
NC So wld it be approp to facil a convo re her not wanting to take her clothes off in a room he was in. Not a kind way to treat Sandie
KS It wasnt what I was proposing. Just a way of managing when ppl are uncomfortable
NC U cld tell from Du that SP was feeling v uncomfortable

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