NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #36

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35

Maybe she could Google it 🤷🏻‍♀️

So this consultant, what is her speciality? Or do I mean specialism?

Edited: vocab, also spelling

Why were any of these people allowing SP to blithely go to the changing room to change her scrubs, when she could have been a haemorrhaging man?

If a patient was brought into A&E by ambulance, unconscious, rushed into ICU, and she was briefing the medical team present in an emergency, how would she know whether a patient was a John doe or a Jane doe?

If you have a message deleted and you want to question it, report the deleted post to MNHQ, put your query into the 'why' box and you are straight through to their complaints department.

Ating MNHQ on threads doesn't generally work. It used to Once Upon A Time, but I've not seen it in a long while.

I’m glad I mentioned that it would probably be deleted.

Emergency medicine.

How did everyone else know which changing room to use, if they didn't believe in gender identity!?

She uses google A LOT apparently. But only for unimportant things like employment law and correct procedure in the workplace.

The arrogance is breathtaking

Headlines incoming.

FIFE consultant doesn't know how to tell the sex of babies.

Let's hope the maternity staff do

Do you think she did an obstetrics rotation when she trained?

Was this not covered in medical school?

Just WTF are we teaching doctors these days?

Why, oh why are people prepared to totally make clowns themselves in this way. Feigning not to understand the biological foundation of sex?

KS has clearly done homework into the whole gender ideology thing and it's interesting that about some things she's happy to show her knowledge and about others she becomes somewhat shy. Which is curious since she's not the shy type.

The extent to which this educated senior professional is prepared to be clown herself in the pursuit of such a murky cause is absolutely astounding.

Absolutely Fawning At Beth?

How is the man in this situation the only one they are sure is a woman??!!! 🤦‍♀️

Ok see when I said on another thread that KS would be disappointing after all the hype, I was wrong. 🤯

The difference in delivery is incredible.

From TT

KS I agree we shldnt have written these things in this group. I cant say whether it's been withheld. I dont think u can prove the emails were linked

Fifer : this is the first time anyone has given it "I don't think you can prove" to NC. Ah deh see it gaun well, but let's see.

NC These emails werent produced for the 1st hearings were they?
KS It appears not
NC There were 6 of you in this chain
NC & after DU added, so 6 of you cld have found this info?
KS I'm not a legal expert and cant say. Not all were involved throughout. I dont know who was involved when
NC U knew LC was involves as y'd discussed the HI
NC Did u all agree not to produce it
KS NO

Fifth light, straight to green.

NC I suggest u conspired not to produce it
KS Absolutely not. I'm a dr and trustworthy.
NC Yr regulator wld be concerned about this if you hadnt?
KS we have to work w honesty and integrity

Fifer : noo Kate isnae ma cousin, or any relation o mine. Never heard ay her. But ahm honestly concerned noo whaur this is gaun. It's like the pre-credits ae a horror show, ye ken the lassie isnae getting oot ae this.

NC just moves smoothly on. No need to push further. Point made.

NC Re DU using F CR, DU said [reads re was approp for him to use this CR. I have been instructed is the approp thing for me to do and I've been told to do this] Y're the only person who discussed this
KS I didnt instruct Dr Upton. I checked she was ok to use the F CR.
KS I wldnt normally ask this but I wanted to make sure she was comfortable doing this as aware she's a T female. A short convo only and no instruction.
NC [new doc] In yr evidence in chief u said Beth [reads from before] What's happened is u treated as self evident he was entitled to use the F CR
KS I read the EHRC that said u were entitled to use the CR of yr GI.
NC There's been no consultation had there?
KS I wld never have a convo w other jr dr so I didnt have that convo w Beth either. I'm a clinician dealing w supervision

Fifer : noo ahm no a gamie (gamekeeper), but ah ken a buck fae a hind. (still a guid pub, wis better before the shipyerds were shut). Beth is a male with transgender identity, otherwise kent as a trans woman. Ye'd think doctors would be on top o basics, mair than a hauf cut Fifer on his settee for the day.

KS If there's a workforce issue someone more senior shld do this work before Beth came to me
KS Beth has every right to use the facilities she wants under the GRA.
NC What did u look at to satisfy yrself?
KS If u google it there's many refs for trans ppl and CR
KS I asked IB and there's no other policy to dispute this
NC IB told the tribunal that she doesnt know if she's F or M. Do u know yr F?
KS It's on my birth certificate But u know yr F?
KS That's the gender that was given to me at birth. The sex. It's a decision made at birth by the ppl delivering the baby, I believe. I'm not an expert at it.

Fifer : the double-think doth tie the tongue. Ah think that wis shakespeer.

NC So sex assigned at birth is whether u have a M or F body?
KS Yes
NC Bio sex is very important [lists re responses to drugs, normal ranges for bld results]
KS Yes
NC Anyone saying sex is a nebulous dog whistle is talking nonsense?
KS I dont know what u mean
NC explains
J I think nebulous dog whistle means quite that
NC Gives DUs statement
KS I cant say as wasnt here for that evidence

Fifer : appears to have difficulty managing airway / drinking. Beer coming out of his nose.

NC What does GC mean? KS I think strong views on sex and have 2 chromosomes

Fifer : 46 actually, except in the very rare cases of polyploidy which survive to birth. O level biology. Ah did pay attention that day. Sittin behind wee Susan, aw she was a braw lassie. (Drifts away in semi drunken reverie)

NC Females having strong views, and yr body is determined biologically on yr chromosomes
(KS) I think so. I'm not an expert
NC Are u aware that GC belief is a PC under the EA
KS yes
NC What do you understand about talking about yr PC being protected. It's a legal Q
KS Y're allowed to have yr beliefs but the way u express them may not be lawful
NC U talked to DU re Aug/OCt self exclusion of SP from CR
KS I dont remember the dates, but assume correct

Laughing aside, it's actuall scary that these so called medical people are prepared to say these things on record, under oath. It's clearly what they actually believe, which surely must make them unfit to practice medicine.

They know full well how sex works. Because of being indoctrinated that they have to pretend trans-identifying staff (and patients) are the opposite sex if they say they are not the 'gender' they were 'assigned at birth', they are now confused about what 'gender' means if it's not sex and yet you have to treat the person as the opposite sex, and they are too afraid of saying something wrong so just think the 'gender experts' who have spouted this tosh at them must understand what it's all about and think it's important so they'll go along with it.

From the Herald feed:

Biological sex is a meaningful thing, isn't it, asks Ms Cunningham. How it responds to drugs, the range for blood results, height and wight and much else beside.
Do you agree with that?
Dr Searle says yes.
Anyone who describes biological sex as a nebulous dog whistle is talking nonsense, isn't it, she says. That was a phrase used by Dr Upton in February.
There's some disagreement over what it means.
Dr Searle isn't entirely clear.

That last line is a killer. An A&E consultant who isn’t entirely clear over whether biological sex is a nebulous dog whistle.

None of these staff used the same changing room as Sandie and Dr. Upton probably cos they'd get stuck outside going "hmmmm am I man or woman, haven't checked my chromosomes".

On an aside I got asked my "sex assigned at birth" on a form before an MRI scan last week. That's really confusing language to someone who is stressed / may be autistic (who might respond "I don't know I wasn't there" etc.)

I can’t see her, unlike Upton who I did see until we got shut out of the first hearing, but this level of apparent arrogance in saying complete nonsense reminds me of his.